Template talk:Grappling

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I dramatically cut down the number of entries in the "submissions" section. The section was ridiculously huge; it included obscure submissions like the gogoplata, it included many superfluous doubles such as "armlock" "armbar" and "flying armbar", as well as several wrestling holds that are not even submissions.

The Submission article itself says that subs can be divided into three categories; joint locks, compression locks and chokeholds. This is what I had cut it down to anyway, and I think this is a good place to leave it for now. There are hundreds of submissions, we cannot possibly list them all in a box like this. Keeping it down to just the categories is best, and makes a much neater looking box. Expanding it slightly to include armlocks, leglocks, shoulder locks, spine locks etc may be warranted since there are such a huge number of jointlock submissions, and only a few compressions locks. But try to keep things neat, and don't list individual submissions when a category is already there. Harley peters (talk) 03:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So apparently I'm the only one that changes this box.

I cut down the "general techniques" section. Like most of this box, it was a mess. Without even a good definition of "general technique" in terms of grappling I don't have a lot to go on here. The Wikipedia articles themselves on the subject are small, poorly written or non-existent. I took it down to the minimum of entries.

I removed the "General positions" section entirely. Again, I don't even know what a "general position" is as it applies to all forms of grappling. I can speak for the sort that I have training in, but I know what is "generally" used in my sport is totally absent in other forms of grappling. Again, the articles on these entries were often stub articles anyway with no real value. Even the general articles on "grappling" are very poorly written and give little help. I'm just going to keep this box as neat as possible until there is more relevant content to add. Harley peters (talk) 16:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should reorganize or resort the stuff that was in it, I don't even see any consensus on this change. :( Klichka (talk) 16:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Created a documentation template, its a Rough Cut taken from the martial arts one. Could benefit from more experienced editors improving it. Jdcollins13 (talk) 16:22, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone heard of the Harness position? I can't seem to find anything on it, nor have I ever heard of it in my 5-ish years of BJJ, and 6 months of Pancrase grappling. If not I think we should remove it — Jdcollins13 (talk) 16:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Grappling hold article seems to suggest it is similar to a Pinch grip tie or Bear hug.— Jdcollins13 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, after a couple years the box is still a mess. I think we really need to decide what actually needs to be in this box.

The only two categories that I see as "must keep" are Grappling Based Martial Arts and Organisations. Including things here is informative, and the categories are well defined. It is relatively easy to agree that Judo is a grappling based martial art, while Karate is not, even though it contains grappling elements.

The other categories seem rather less useful though. General Techniques? It isn't at all clear what this means, especially since techniques vary so much between different arts. There are many techniques that are shared by several arts, but of course they go by different names in each art, so which name would we use here? What makes a technique "general"? What isn't a general technique? Currently, Eye-Gouging is listed a general technique, which is completely absurd. I was going to simply edit it out, but I realized I had no criteria to judge it compared to the rest. Is the box improved by having this category? Certainly not at the moment. I train grappling myself, and I can't think of how to make this category useful. Grappling Positions shares the same problems, and indeed can be considered redundant because positions can also be considered techniques.

Submission types is actually fairly easy to define; at one point I had it down to joint-locks, choke holds and compression locks, which covers broadly every submission of which I am aware. My edit was instantly reverted on account of lack of consensus though, so it remains filled with junk and redundancies like jointlock, armlock and wristlock. This box can be endlessly abused, since there are hundreds of submissions from a wide variety of different arts, and some grappling arts don't even have submissions.

So, should we have these categories in the Grappling box in the first place? I don't really think so, unless some persuasive argument can be made in their favour. This argument must also somehow tell us how to define these categories so we and future editors can decide what belongs here and what does not. Replacing these existing categories with other, more easily defined ones would also be very useful. Harley peters (talk) 02:21, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]