Template talk:John Cage

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Nowth upon Nacht is a minor work; certainly Roaratorio or Europeras are more important for inclusion in this box. Badagnani (talk) 19:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment, I have included all the works which have Wikipedia Articles. Not sure whether to add major works without articles as they're not really necessary as no link can be provided. Although they should maybe be added with future writing of an article in mind? --JuPitEer 21:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Badagnani (talk) 21:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I don't think this works very well... it definitely distorts the picture for someone who is new to Cage. "Major compositions" shouldn't include Nowth upon Nacht, A Flower or the clarinet sonata; as for the works without articles - I see no problem with simply including no links or red links. If you think this is too important, I can create a number of stubs for Roaratorio, Europeras, Atlas Eclipcitalis and other major works we haven't got articles for; not too many of those left, anyway. --Jashiin (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added Coomaraswamy and Suzuki, but they could perhaps be in their own section, along with Henry Cowell, who was a big influence. Badagnani (talk) 19:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better with seperate sections for collaborators and influences. Although as there are only a few people in each it might make the template excessively large, so perhaps its better off as it is. --JuPitEer 21:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave this up to you. Badagnani (talk) 21:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm kind of bad at editing templates. Someone should take care of this particular template, regularly, because our Cage coverage improves constantly. "Major" compositions should include Sonatas and Interludes (which is an old FA) and Number Pieces (which has been created more or less recently), we have articles for both. And there has to be a link to List of compositions by John Cage somewhere, not to an incomplete List of solo piano compositions by John Cage, which I'll be putting to AfD sometime soon. --Jashiin (talk) 18:50, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any point in adding Demetrio Stratos to the template? User:Pjoef insists on this based on the fact that the template is used in Stratos' article, but it was him who placed the template there in the first place. I'm not trying to diminish Stratos' importance or anything of the sort; but he is simply one of the many, many musicians who worked with Cage. We can't possibly list them all in a navigation template, which is reserved for the main topics. Stratos was not an influence on Cage, and they did not collaborate in the way Cage collaborated with Tudor or Cunningham. If we list him, we should also list all the pianists Cage worked with, on major works (Grete Sultan, Maro Ajemian, Margaret Leng Tan..), all the teachers (Buhlig, Weiss..), all the filmmakers, painters, etc., etc., etc. And finally, adding Stratos to the template doesn't really add to the reader's knowledge of Cage. I suggest removing the link altogether, as well as the template from Stratos' page (since really, a link to John Cage does all the job there). --Jashiin (talk) 19:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my humble [and NOT appealable] opinion, Demetrio Stratos was the greatest singer of all time, and NOT "one of the many, many musicians who worked with Cage". Anyway, John Cage is cited over 20 times in that article, and they were very good friends. Read that article and you will see! But, the question is why Ananda Coomaraswamy and D. T. Suzuki have been added to this template? I had to add this template to those pages, and Cage is not cited there. –pjoef (talk • contribs) 22:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This template isn't about all wonderful musicians who worked with Cage. Cage was friends with, and worked with Cathy Berberian, for instance - would you include her here as well? What about Joan La Barbara? Those are just other vocalists. Most major composers worked with major performers, but the template should only include those of them who were an important influence. Tudor and Cunningham worked with Cage for decades. The writings of Suzuki and Coomaraswamy inspired the most important of Cage's methods, i.e. chance (Suzuki), and some of the most important works (e.g. Sonatas and Interludes). As to why Cage isn't mentioned on Commaraswamy's and Suzuki's pages—well, it's simply that editors who worked on those articles have yet to include the information about Cage there.

So my point isn't "Stratos was unimportant". My point is "Stratos was not as important as Tudor or Suzuki, and if we include Stratos, then we also have to include Cathy Berberian, Joan La Barbara, Margaret Leng Tan, Grete Sultan, and countless other major performers Cage knew and worked with, just like he knew and worked with Stratos." --Jashiin (talk) 18:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are asking me something I do not know. What I can say is that I removed the Suzuki's link because this template was not placed on that page and because that article do not cite John Cage. When I saw your edit, I added the template to the Suzuki's page. For the opposite reason (Cage is cited over 20 times in that article) I have added the link to Demetrio Stratos' page and I have placed the template on that page. That's all! Nothing about who was John Cage's best friend or collaborator. What I know is that John and Demetrio lived and worked together from about 1974, when Stratos recorded a version for a solo voice of Cage's "Sixty-Two Mesostics Re Merce Cunningham", until late 1978, when Cage invited Stratos to teach a course about the possibilities of the human voice for the Center for Experimental Music at the University of San Diego in California. But, Demetrio died in New York City Memorial Hospital on June 13, 1979 at the age of thirty–four. It would be great to ask them about their collaborations and friendship, but, unfortunately for them and for us all, both those genii are dead. Rest in peACE, John and Demetrio! :'(
Anyway, if you think that it is not appropriate to maintain Demetrio on this template and you decide to remove it, please, also remove the template from that page, and, if this template will be removed from some pages that are featured on it, plz, remove those links from this template! This is a navigation template and it must necessarily be present on all pages it links to. –pjoef (talk • contribs) 15:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An editor is objecting to my cleanup of this navbox, without giving any reasons why. Would be interested to hear why he prefers this version, which uses the wrong syntax for the subtopics and has a really ugly "below" parameter, than the more compact and clean version, where the only missing link is a category, which is not a top level category matching the exact topic of the navbox, which would be standard practice, instead a superfluous category for the compositions, all of which are already linked in the navbox anyway. --woodensuperman 08:38, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]