Template talk:USSecVA

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Hello all,

This a short message on why Mr. Gober has been listed in the Template when other acting Secretaries haven't. First off, here's some background. The previous Secretary, Togo West resigned on July 25, 2000. Between then and the time Pres. Clinton left office on Jan 20, 2001, Mr. Gober was the acting Secretary.

There are two reasons Mr. Gober should be listed in the t/p are: he served until Clinton left office; and other reference books/sites list him as well.

After doing some research into the first reason, it appears that the same thing happened with Pres. GHW Bush in 1992. His Secretary, Edward J. Derwinski resigned on September 26, 1992 and then Deputy Sec. Anthony Joseph Principi took over until Pres. Bush left office on Jan. 20, 1993. Unlike the situation with Mr. Gober, it appears Bush didn't name Mr. Principi as acting Sec.; he got the job because he was Deputy. This can be seen by the Press Release put out in Sept. 1992, which is here. However it appears there is one exception. In the Sept. 1992 article Angry Veterans Groups Say They Made Bush Oust Agency's Head, there is this line:

Mr. Derwinski's deputy, Anthony J. Principi, who is well liked by veterans groups, was named on Saturday as Acting Secretary.

Getting back to Mr. Gober, it appears there was an effort to formalize his appointment as Acting Sec:

On July 9, 1999 CNN wrote in the article Togo to go:

West's resignation will likely to return control of the VA to the hands of Deputy Secretary Hershel Gober.

On July 11, the New York Times wrote close to the same thing in their article V.A. Secretary Resigning:

Mr. West, a former Army secretary and lobbyist who plans to return to the private sector, will be succeeded by his deputy, Hershel W. Gober of Monticello, Ark., a veteran of the Army and the Marine Corps.

The strongest evidence for this is the VA's own Press Releases. The VA stated when Gober took over as Acting Secretary in July 2000:

Hershel W. Gober today takes over as Acting Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), the federal governments second largest cabinet agency. Former VA Secretary, Togo West, announced his departure on July 10.

- Gober Takes Over Top Spot at VA

When Pres. Clinton appointed the person to act as Gober's Deputy in Aug. 2000, the VA said:

President Clinton has appointed Edward A. (Ned) Powell, Jr., as the Acting Deputy Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). Powell, currently VAs Assistant Secretary for Financial Management, will fill the position held by Hershel W. Gober, who was named Acting VA Secretary.

- Ned Powell Named Acting VA Deputy Secretary

The strongest language about Mr. Gober's appointment comes from the White House:

President Clinton today intends to designate Hershel W. Gober as Acting Secretary of Veterans Affairs (VA), upon the departure of Secretary Togo West.

- PRESIDENT CLINTON NAMES HERSHEL W. GOBER AS ACTING SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS

As for the second point - the following reference books and sites list Mr. Gober's second Tenure as Acting Secretary:

Sites:

• IPL: POTUS
• Encarta
• Rulers
• World Statesmen

Books:

• The World Almanac (Gober was listed as Acting Sec. in the list of Clinton Administration officials and the list of VA Secretaries in 2000; since then, he has been listed with the other VA Secretaries alone)
• The Time Almanac 2008

There are some reference books that don't list Mr. Gober:

Sites:

• InfoPlease

Books:

• William DeGregorio's The Complete Book of U.S. Presidents, 2001 Ed. (Mr. DeGregorio extends Mr. West's term to 2001!)

As for the Government sites, it is split. The VA's main factsheet does not list Mr. Gober. However, the VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System's list has Mr. Gober on it. The Clinton White House's list of cabinet members had Mr. Gober on it as well.

In short, due to the balance of the evidence, Mr. Gober's tenure should be listed in the t/p. It clearly was a unique time. - Thanks, Hoshie 13:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a bit more reading into this and it gets confusing. It appears the VA can't decide if Mr. Gober is counted or not. On it's 75th anniversary website in 2005, Mr. Gober was listed for his 1997 service (which is not included on the t/p due to the fact Clinton filled the vacancy) and his 2000 service (which is included). I also picked a copy of the New York Times Almanac. It lists both times Gober acted: 1997 and 2000. The 2000 edition of the Statesman's Yearbook does not list Mr. Gober; it lists Togo West due to the fact West was still in office when the book was published. This is almost the same thing done by William DeGregorio in his book.

Someone has added Gordon Mansfield who came between Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Peake. This has been removed due to the fact that unlike Gober, Mr. Mansfield is not listed in the current World Almanac under the other VA Secretaries; he is listed under the Bush Administration listings. This is a different situation that what's stated here. - Thanks, Hoshie 09:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have done a little more digging. The 2004 edition of the World Book Encylopedia lists Mr. Gober in the list of Pres. Clinton's cabinet and in the article about the VA. The US Senate's site has a list of cabinet confirmations since Jimmy Carter; Mr. Gober's name is on this list. Also, the VA's website from the time Mr. Gober became Acting Secretary is interesting. When Mr. Gober took up the job, the VA had a "Special Feature" bragging (to be honest) about his appointment, complete with a video and links to his bio.

Mr. Gober's official bio offers interesting insight. The first paragraph says (emphais added):

Hershel Gober's appointment by President Clinton as Acting Secretary of Veterans Affairs was effective July 25, 2000 . He had served as Deputy Secretary of Veterans Affairs since being sworn in by President Clinton on February 4, 1993.

However, there is an exception to the rule. The History of the Political Parties II print does not list Mr. Gober. (click to zoom in).

Because of this, it seems clear that from all the press releases, reference books, websites, newspapers, etc. a good case could be made for Mr. Gober's inclusion in the T/P. de jure, he was the Acting Secretary from Jul 2000-Jan 2001. de facto, he was *the* Secretary, even though he didn't get the job the normal way. In my view, the same can't be said for Mr. Principi's time in 1992, Mr. Gober's first time in 1997, or Mr. Mansfield's time last year. - Thanks, Hoshie 14:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent research and information with dates and references. Definitely needs to be incorporated into the United States Secretary of Veterans Affairs article, as well as each individual's article pages. And kudos for putting the information on the talk page and including an HTML note to aid editors in finding more about the issue.

However, having said that, including some acting secretaries in the template but not all of them could be seen as pushing a WP:POV. I agree that from the information above, there definitely does seem to be a difference, between "acting" and "really, really acting".  :)

Acting Draft:

Non-Acting Draft:

My 2c is to include each of them with the (acting) designator or omit all of them. This heads off any WP:EDITWAR and leaves the supporting information in the articles, instead of cluttering up the template with all kinds of crazy notations and designators. — MrDolomite • Talk 18:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the kudos and the comments. I agree with ya that all the acting guys should be listed. The only reason Mr. Gober is listed is that other sources list him. If the other sources had listed, for example, Mr. Principi's stint between Mr. Derwinski and Mr. Brown, then he would have been added. To be honest, I'm not too sure why all these books and sites list this guy in the first place. I can think of two reasons why, though. 1) Pres. Clinton never filled the post and 2) the Clinton WH and in some places, the VA was so definitive on this matter (see some of the press releases referenced above). With it being almost nine years since this happened and no word on it since from Pres. Clinton or Mr. Gober, I don't think we'll ever know what the details of this appointment were. This sitution aside, I do wish WP had some standards on listing acting officals. - Thanks, Hoshie 21:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]