Template talk:Veganism and vegetarianism

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@Randy Kryn: I was trying to link Cultured meat in the related section, so I assumed the bar for inclusion would be lower. I don't know why you think that only vegetarian foods can be related to vegetarianism. From my perspective, there is a clear motivational relation, as many people choose plant-based diets for purposes that could also be served by cultured meat. WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 13:27, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, asked you to put this to the talk page to get other opinions. Is it actual meat, even though home-grown in a culture? If it's meat it's not related to vegetarianism, at least from my point of view, but I haven't studied the sources. Reverted you after reading the lead of the Cultured meat page. Thanks for following up. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:51, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's designed to be real meat, but grown at the cellular level (somewhat like plants) rather than butchered from farmed animals. It's an emerging technology with significant support from some animal welfare and environmental activists. WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 14:31, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Throughthemind:, @MaynardClark:, @BrikDuk:, @Odontocetes:, @Classicfilms:, Veg Historian, @Rasnaboy:, and @J Milburn: from above, for opinions and comments. Adding it to this navbox as 'Related' seems an interesting question which hopefully will be well discussed, thanks. Of course, as always, we have to rely on sources. Is cultured meat widely accepted as being related to veganism or vegetarianism? Randy Kryn (talk) 15:48, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cultured (lab grown) meat is not plant-based, vegan or vegetarian. Most people that support lab-grown meat are not vegans. It is developed from animal cells. Most of the companies that harvest animal cells for cultured meat do so from by products of slaughtered animals or mistreated in bad conditions for the only purpose of harvesting cells. Cultured meat is neither vegan or vegetarian. I personally would disagree with including it on this template. Veg Historian (talk) 16:34, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some alt-meat is entirely plant-based, while cultured meat is typically derived from animal cells. The latter is not vegetarian or vegan, as it originates from animal tissue, often sourced from live or slaughtered animals. While some advocate for it as a harm-reduction strategy, it remains distinct from plant-based alternatives. IMO the use of the 4-letter-term 'meat' is inherenty confusing and ought not to be used (but it is 'fast becoming common practice').MaynardClark (talk) 17:25, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Same response as Veg Historian and MaynardClark.-Classicfilms (talk) 02:49, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think that an article about alt-meat that distinguishes cultured meat from plant-based meat (as GFI does) would make good sense. Alternativelty, a brief section within the article about GFI could also make sense. MaynardClark (talk) 03:26, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you meant. There's already a Meat alternative article. WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 14:38, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We could justify various conversations in that article, including the safety question: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0291791. Such articles could be more widely 'referenced' (and thus accessed) if it were included in the WikiProject TechnologyMaynardClark (talk) 13:13, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My alternative link in the Ethics section has also been reverted. This appears to be a sensitive subject. I grant that the navbox is already large, perhaps due to its being so inclusive of other links like Jambon and Planetary health diet.

From the cultured meat article, the 2012 BBC source shows a range of perspectives on cultured meat and vegetarianism. A non-vegetarian food that many vegetarians will or should eat? Our readers can form their own opinions on the issue, they don't need information to be disconnected because of labels and group identities. WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 12:00, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I do NOT think (a) that (m)any vegetarians (or vegans) should eat any non-vegetarian food, and that is not the issue we intend to raise, but it MAY be an issue that receiving minds (following this discussion) tend to 'take down' from the discuss 'up there' if their only reason for plant-based diets is humane-as-they-understand-it. Maybe 'message clarification' os something that COULD (legitimately?) be 'nuanced into' such a Wikipedia article, perhaps in terms of the 'valueproposition' of the 'cultured meat' (which could be 'INSTRUMENTAL' in creating a transitional food for harm reduction in the moral dilemma of 'keeping cats' (which even abolitionist Gary Francione SAYS is legitimate for vegans to do if they are rescued from 'desperation'. Touch on the ethical dilemmas faced by vegans regarding the care of pets, particularly carnivorous animals like [cat]]s, which (in a premodern state of nature) typically require animal-based food for optimal health. While the ethical position of many vegans is to avoid consuming animal products altogether, the issue becomes more nuanced when it comes to feeding pets that are obligate carnivores. In this context, the concept of cultured meat (lab-grown meat) could provide a transitional solution that aligns with the vegan value proposition of reducing harm. Cultured meat offers the possibility of providing animal-based nutrition without directly exploiting or killing animals. For vegans who care for carnivorous pets, using cultured meat could be seen as an instrumental step toward harm reduction in situations where feeding a plant-based alternative may not be viable for the pet's health (given current market conditions - with no TRULY 'vegan solution' available or conceivable). Additionally, it's important to note that abolitionist vegans like Gary Francione acknowledge that it may be ethically permissible for vegans to care for pets, including cats, provided the animals are rescued from situations of desperation or harm, and not bred for ownership or exploitation (instead, they are trying to shelter these disadvantaged persons). This stance allows for some flexibility in the broader ethical framework of veganism, emphasizing the rescue and care of animals while still upholding the values of harm reduction and non-exploitation. Ultimately, the discussion could be nuanced into a Wikipedia article focused on the moral complexities of veganism, pet care, and the potential role of cultured meat as a transitional solution, balancing the desire to avoid animal exploitation with the practical realities of caring for pets.MaynardClark (talk) 21:09, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't the articles on 'cultured meat' be potentially valuable contributions to the WikiProject in Veterinary Medicine and/or in the WikiProject on Technology since 'high tech' foods AND processed foods are 'technologies'? Further, there are Wikiprojest in Futures Studies and [1]. MaynardClark (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a very readable writing style, and I struggle to see the point you're trying to make in this navbox discussion. WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 13:06, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of core issues:

Cultured Meat and Veganism:

• Cultured meat (also known as lab-grown meat) is developed from animal cells but does not involve the killing of animals. This distinction makes it a contentious issue in the vegan community. While it's derived from animal tissue, it may still align with some of the ethical principles of veganism, especially the idea of reducing harm.
• Vegans traditionally avoid animal products, but feeding pets that are obligate carnivores (like cats) presents an ethical dilemma. In this case, cultured meat might serve as a harm-reduction solution, offering a way to provide necessary nutrition to these pets without contributing to animal death or factory farming. This potentially makes it a transitional food for some dietary vegans, especially those who are committed to a plant-based lifestyle but are also committed to the welfare of their animals (rather than for their own health optimization, since meat biosimilars may introduce the same health harms to those who eat alt-meats as are introduced by their eating animal-derived meats).

Gary Francione’s Perspective:

• Prominent abolitionist vegan Gary Francione argues that it may be ethically acceptable for vegans to care for pets that are rescued from dire situations. He emphasizes that it is not about supporting the breeding or exploitation of animals but offering shelter and care for those who have been harmed or abandoned. This allows for some flexibility in the vegan framework, especially when it comes to rescued carnivorous animals like cats.

Cultured Meat as a Transitional Solution:

• Given the lack of truly plant-based solutions for obligate carnivores, cultured meat could be seen as a temporary step towards resolving this dilemma. It could align with vegan values of harm reduction while meeting the dietary needs of these pets. While it’s not plant-based, it could bridge the gap until more vegan solutions emerge, such as fully plant-based alternatives that meet the dietary needs of carnivorous pets.

WikiProject and Ethical Implications:

• The cultured meat discussion could be included in Wikipedia articles related to ethical veganism, animal welfare, and veterinary medicine. It's a complex and evolving area where technological advancements (like cultured meat) could help mitigate the ethical concerns faced by vegans. Furthermore, the broader WikiProjects in Technology, Veterinary Medicine, and Futures Studies could contribute to understanding and integrating cultured meat into more sustainable and ethical food systems.

Future Thoughts:

Including cultured meat in the conversation about veganism and vegetarianism could be a way to acknowledge the nuanced ethical dilemmas faced by vegans, especially those who care for pets. It’s not about whether it is plant-based but about recognizing that it might offer a practical solution for harm reduction in the context of pet care. As the technology evolves, more clarity and consensus may emerge about its role in veganism, but it can serve as a bridge solution for now. But those not interested in any of the ways plant-based diets are often presented could be interested in the business and/or scientific and/or energy use reduction or national security characteristics of this 'research direction' ostensibly related to nonhuman and human feeding. How curious that the discussions that we observe among interest groups investing in 'cultured meat solutions' seem to disallow research into vegan pet food but to prioritize the short-term clawback of investments (as ROI) if human-interest foods are produced in, from, with their work. However, truly ethical vegan interests might align more with the utility of veganizing the pet food industry (een if we ethical vegans were to mature in our character and understanding toward WFPB (whole food plant-based) vegan diets. MaynardClark (talk) 21:26, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding these considerations and sharing links. The pet food use case is interesting and not one I had thought much about. WeyerStudentOfAgrippa (talk) 13:37, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ethical Veganism and Technological Solutions:

The potential acceptance of cultured meat within the vegan community is a nuanced ethical question that will likely evolve as technology advances. Some might see it as a step toward reducing animal exploitation, while others might view it as a compromise that doesn't align fully with vegan principles (given it’s still animal-derived). Thus, more research and discussion about the ethical frameworks could be beneficial.

Nuance in the Vegan Perspective:

There are other perspectives within the vegan community regarding care for pets becyond Gary Francione's flexibility with pet care. Some vegan advocates are staunchly opposed to feeding animals anything derived from animals, while others focus on compassion and harm reduction, allowing for more flexible, context-driven decisions. Heated words about these topics could be heard among ethical vegans

Cultured Meat in Pet Care:

Including cultured meat as a potential option for obligate carnivores like cats could be framed as an example of ethical pragmatism — a practical solution for a difficult ethical issue. While it's not plant-based, it could address a real-world challenge where a plant-based diet is not feasible (or currently safe) for these animals. Ethically sensitive vegetarians (and perhaps later vegans) could consider thechallenges of caregiving among (a) some pets and (b) elderly parents and grocery shoppers and food line patrons.

Environmental and Technological Considerations:

It could also be worth highlighting how environmental concerns play into the discussion. Cultured meat promises a significant reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, water usage, and land exploitation compared to conventional meat production. This aspect could appeal to environmentally conscious vegans or individuals who are considering a broader ethical approach that includes sustainability and eco-consciousness.

Vegan Pet Food Industry:

The disconnect in investment priorities between cultured meat and the vegan pet food industry hinders (what we could call) ethical dietary vegan animal lovers who could struggle (in their carers) to resolve this moral dilemma with cultured meat technologies, which are based on animal cells, and are often backed by substantial investment, whereas plant-based pet food options might not receive the same level of financial or research backing. Advocating for more innovation in vegan pet foods could be seen as a way to align technology and business with ethical vegan values—addressing a gap in the market that would directly support vegan pet owners.

Future Outlook:

How cultured meat might be integrated into the future horizon shaped and defined by ethical veganism could become more and more important. Over time, as both the technology and vegan pet food options evolve, the broader ethical discussion will likely shift. Including more of these perspectives in future articles or discussions will help ensure that all angles are explored as society grapples with the intersection of technology, ethics, and food systems.MaynardClark (talk) 21:35, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]