User talk:AzureCitizen

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	Thank you berry much for your help!
	They're not quite azure, but they're delicious and good for you. Thanks for your help on SaveCalifornia.com. Now I'm a little less worried about it falling into the deep blue sea. Enjoy! – MrX 17:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, happy to contribute and help wherever I can!  :) AzureCitizen (talk) 21:02, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for working with me to make Kerry Bentivolio a better article. As you can obviously tell, I'm new and rough around the edges, but I certainly learned quite a bit. Thanks for your patience and your help! --35.16.91.224 (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're most welcome.  :) Please continue to edit and make Wikipedia one of your hobbies! Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help on Allen West's page. I do have to disagree with you though, on a couple of points. A fire support officer's designation on his DD214 is as a "FSO" or Fire Support Officer, capitalized. (See: Artillery observer) And when we were in Vicenza, Italy together we were not the 4/325 Infantry Regiment ... all paratrooper infantry regiments receive the "Airborne" designation so we were the 4/325th ABCT or "Airborne Battalion Combat Team" once our 1/509th colors were retired and the 82nd absorbed us into the Division. Even if we were using the new unit designations at the time, it would be noted as 325th PIR or "Parachute Infantry Regiment." Simply noting "Infantry Regiment" is not indicative of his Airborne status at the time when he was receiving Hazardous Duty "jump pay." But you are correct on several of the other notes ... and between you and I we upgraded the entry a great deal. I served under Allen as one of his FDC Chiefs. We were, in order, the 1/509th ABCT Geronimos, the 4/325th ABCT Geronimos, the 1/508th ABCT Geronimos and now they are the 173rd ABCT Sky Soldiers upgraded to a Brigade Combat Team rather than a Battalion Combat Team. Thank you again. I'm learning.  :) --Scrooster (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Howdy! Thanks for dropping by, I thought about leaving you a note on your Talk Page to clarify one or two things but then quickly moved on to other things. You're clearly right about the unit designations (e.g., 1/25 SBCT), but for non-military readers on Wikipedia, it's usually easier for them to understand it written out (e.g., "1st Battalion, 25th Infantry Division") with the corresponding Wikilinks to the smallest organization (in this case, 25th ID) to guide the reader to find out more. If you do a search right now for "1/25 SBCT", nothing will come up... maybe someone should create a bunch of article redirects some day, but the potential list would be exhaustive. In the alternative, you could use a pipelink to have the text in the article read "1/25 SBCT" while linking to the 25th ID if you wanted to, but again you have the problem where it's crystal clear to military folks like us and confusing to non-military readers trying to decipher it. Up to you if you want to take a stab at that and try reformatting the names to some sort of compromise in between. On the titles of positions, the convention I use is that if it's a specific position to a given unit, i.e., "he was the Executive Officer of the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team", you uppercase the position, while if it's in reference to a non-specific unit, you lowercase it, i.e., "he served as an executive officer for a maintenance company". In my opinion, frequent and repetitive uppercasing doesn't look good to my eye for encyclopedic prose, and using the lowercase versions for most jobs coupled with the more prominent specific units positions standing out in uppercase just flows better. Just my two cents. Feel free to make further enhancements if you feel it would help the readability... :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gotcha. Okay, I can try to do something down the road with that and thanks for taking the time to guide me through the thought process a bit more. Much appreciated. Scrooster (talk) 22:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Howdy, stranger!
Your name just popped up on my watchlist for the first time in a long time, which reminded me that I had wanted to ask you a question. It has to do with this edit made a few months ago. The edit summary seemed logical on its face, so I didn't think too much about it, but then I started noticing the GCM being mentioned in various sources about the guy. Could all those sources be wrong? Compounding the confusion is the fact that Bowerman was in the ROTC first, then in the Reserves (which handles a GCM-equivalent somewhat differently), and was allegedly awarded the medal not long after the Army established it in the early 1940s. Is it possible the "active enlisted service" requirement was different back then, or perhaps he received a variation of the Army GCM? It's just been something I've been curious about, and I recalled seeing a flurry of chatter about medals on your Talk page a while back and figured you may have some insight on the matter. It's not something I'm losing sleep over, obviously (it's been months since that edit).

I hope all is well with you. :) Xenophrenic (talk) 03:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello X, good to hear from you! All is well here and I hope the same for you. I took a look at the Bowerman article to glean what I could about the situation. I think you might be on the right track in figuring that if several sources document Bowerman had an AGCM, he probably really did have one, and that there might be something present in the current article write-up that is off track. Allow me to speculate one possibility that might explain it... there are plenty of Army officers who wear or have worn the AGCM on their ribbon rack (myself included... it's because of prior active duty enlisted time before commissioning). The article currently says that Bowerman "joined the United States Army as a 2nd Lieutenant in the days following the Pearl Harbor attack." Much earlier versions of the article just said he served in the Army, and the first edit to expand the subject and introduce the Moore source is here from May 2008, which actually says he "enlisted" in the Army following the Pearl Harbor attack. Is it possible he actually enlisted first, then got commissioned later, either through applying for it or perhaps earning a battlefield commission after he entered the European Theater? As long as he served for one year before becoming an officer, he would have been eligible. The edit changing it to "2nd Lieutenant" in 1941 came later in January 2010 here. However, by ~1945, the article has him commanding a battalion as a major, which is meteoric rise in a very short span of time (but again, things like that happened during WW II with rapid promotion when officers higher in the chain of command got killed off). Have you had the chance to read the Moore book yourself, and compare what's in it to the assertions that are currently being made in the article that he was in ROTC and joined the war as a second lieutenant?  :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:37, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a while since I've read (at least part) of that book, but the digital magic of Google-Books enables the searching and viewing of relevant passages here. Different pieces of the puzzle can be found in these sections:

Pg 56 -- But in early 1933, something happened that would delay everything. Bill had joined ROTC as a senior because he needed the money, without realizing that in return for tuition help he was committing himself to a two-year obligation. He'd have to spend a fifth year at Oregon when he'd hoped to graduate in four.

Pg 67 -- ... it would seem like no time at all until war clouds thickened. "We were in Eastern Oregon with Jon," Bowerman would recall. "On the Sunday, we were driving back to Medford and heard the Japanese had come on in and dropped the bombs on Pearl Harbor." Looking over at Barbara, Bill simply executed a U-turn. "I just drove right to Vancouver Barracks and took a physical, and went back to Medford for a month while they decided what to do with me." Because he'd been in ROTC and the Army Reserve, he was made a second lieutenant and assigned to Ft. Lawton, near Seattle. The camp was essentially a staging ground for sending troops to Alaska, where an invasion was expected. "But they classified me limited duty," Bowerman would remember with disgust. "I've got a scar on my left eye. I got it when I was a boy, ten or twelve, playing mumblety-peg. All it did was nick it. Hell, I could see like an eagle. But they gave me theatre officer, athletic officer. I was doing everything except washing the dishes."

Pg 69 -- As Barbara would describe it, "The Tenth was like an Ivy League club -- a mixture of Regular Army leaders and citizen soldiers, some from expensive colleges. Occasionally officers objected to noncoms coming in the officers' club. But some of the corporals were world-class heroes to men like Bill, who were only officers because they'd been in ROTC. Bill would host these great skiers and be frowned upon by the colonels."

Pg 81 -- One blustery day, when the pear leaves were blowing across the fields, a pair of soldiers with MP armbands hailed Bowerman at practice to say he was under arrest. "Yeah?" said Bowerman. "For what?" The MP, who was from Portland, answered, "Because you refused to obey an order to return to somewhere in Texas where your people were to reassemble to be disbanded." "You think you are going to take me back to Camp Swift," said Bill. "In the first place, I'm not going. In the second place, you are going to look pretty funny. I've got four Bronze Stars and a Good Conduct Medal. I've got a Silver Star for gallantry in action. In the third place, the war is over. I'm a schoolteacher. I'm back here teaching school. In the fourth place, if you try to take me out of here we'll have a riot and you'll get arrested, right here in my Jackson County. "Well," said the MP, "I'm going back to the Adjutant General's office." Where someone must have taken a look at Bowerman's service record, for the Army wrote that he could officially muster out at Camp Carson, in Colorado. One of Barbara's favorite photos shows him there, holding up his honorable discharge papers. His medals would arrive in the mail a couple years later.

I get the impression that normal adherance to procedure and policy at the close of that war may have, at times, taken a backseat to more ad-lib handling of matters, but I'm not sure that holds true of the issuing of medals. Other sources routinely note the GCM among his other medals (like this one). Curious.

I'm doing well; just preparing for the annual end-of-year chaos here, while tying up loose ends before the end of the world.  ;) Xenophrenic (talk) 21:19, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good work on scaring up the most relevant material from the Moore biography. Based on that, I would say my theory that he enlisted in 1941 and became an officer a year after Pearl Harbor is a non-starter. I also reflected on the fact that with a birth date in early 1911, he was already 30+ years old by the time the U.S. entered the war. In all likelihood, he probably really was a lieutenant when he entered active service just a few days after December 7th. After taking another look at the three executive orders that established and amended the rules for the CGM, it doesn't look like he would have been eligible no matter how you skew it, yet numerous sources say he had a GCM and Moore's biography even anecdotally relates a confrontation between Bowerman and some MPs where Bowerman purportedly claims a Silver Star, four BSMs, and a Good Conduct Medal. So what's the real deal? At this point, I suspect either there was confusion at the time it was awarded and a mistake was made (S-1 sections don't always get it right when they publish orders), or Bowerman became confused decades later and thought he'd been awarded the GCM, which then propagated itself into the interviews that became his biography (neither scenario involving any devious intent, as Vets frequently don't always get their stories straight through the fog of many years). At this point, it's unlikely to be resolved unless someone had substantial access to records or could interview the rare surviving individuals (if there are any) who can shed light on these incongruent facts. Perhaps Kenny Moore would know more about it as well?

With regard to the end of the year chaos, I can very much appreciate that. Speaking of the end of the world phenomenon, on a segment of the Colbert Report recently, Colbert remarked that he was very confident that it was true - that December 31, 2012 is definitely going to live up to the predictions by "bringing about the end of the year".  :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hey,

With regards to my BFA edit ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jessica_Lynch&diff=527610387&oldid=527609694), you are indeed right. Having never fired without one I completely forgot.. my bad. Thanks for re-editing it back, and sorry for what must have come across as a seemingly arrogant edit. All the best. --137.222.114.184 (talk)

No problem, and clearly your intentions were to improve the article - it's a subtle point that other people have probably missed as well. Thanks for the courtesy... Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:19, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	For your work on Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. I was copy-editing, and when I went in to remove "He was too young to have purchased a gun anyway," it was gone. Turns out you had gotten there before I could. You have been tirelessly editing and improving this article. Great work!! :D Qbgeekjtw (talk) 19:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, someone else had just added a <cn> tag and it immediately struck me that the statement was faulty OR. Go team! :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:04, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Drmies (talk) 15:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I indirectly mentioned you at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:YahwehSaves_refusing_to_leave_signature. Feel free to leave a comment there is you wish.—Bagumba (talk) 20:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I won't revert you, just want to be clear. My edit didn't label him a killer, it labeled him an alleged killer. And before he was an alleged killer, he was just another non-notable soldier without an article. Seems like the reason for notability should fill the blank in "Subject is ______", and other relevant things (like military service) should follow. But it's not a big deal. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you're saying and you certainly didn't do anything to abrogate the "alleged" aspect (I'm sorry if my edit summary implied that); it just seems more appropriate to say "alleged to have killed" rather than "alleged killer". With regard to his notability, I would definitely agree that he's notable because he (allegedly) committed the murders, not because he's a soldier; but the first sentence of the lede as it stands right now is unambiguous on that point. No worries... Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. The reference is to a different article that refers to the Will article in passing.—Chowbok ☠ 22:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's more or less the same point/content, and both of those articles were published within 24 hours of each other on October 24, 2010. The simplest solution is to move the 2nd (new) source cite to join the 1st citation in supporting the content in the 2010 section. Sound good to you? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and fixed it, you see the edit moving it here. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 02:45, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your objective work on this entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JurgenSchmurgenBurgen (talk • contribs) 05:01, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I strive for fairness and balance. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 19:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I left you a message on the talk page killing of Travis Alexander.--BeckiGreen (talk) 20:14, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll respond there shortly... AzureCitizen (talk) 20:30, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello AzureCitizen,

Thank you so much on you contributions! Maghakian also won a "Gold Star in lieu of a Second Award of the Silver Star" I had added this before to the list of medals he won however, it was removed simply because it was believed that there was no "Gold Star Medal". I found a source that says he won the "Gold Star in lieu of a Second Award of the Silver Star" Is there a way we can add a ribbon for this? Is there any information on this medal? I really want to put it back on his article. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Proudbolsahye, glad to help. The gold star from your reference is referring to a gold 5/16 inch star device, which is what the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps use to annotate a second award of a decoration (in this case, his 2nd Silver Star Medal). It is analogous to the use of a bronze oak leaf cluster as practiced by the U.S. Army and Air Force. When the medal is awarded for the first time, they receive the medal with its suspension ribbon, and then subsequent awards are conferred by adding 5/16 inch stars or oak leaf clusters (depending on the service branch) to show the 2nd award, 3rd award, 4th award, etc. Hence, there is no such thing as a "Gold Star Medal", but tiny 5/16 inch gold star devices that get added onto the service ribbon of the medal itself. Does that clear up the confusion? Please don't hesitate to ask more questions if you need further clarification. With regard to the article itself, we can certainly make an annotation to make it clear that Maghakian received the Silver Star Medal not once but twice. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Thank you for your very informative response. It is all clear to me now. So basically the fact that he received a second Silver Star Medal means that he just received a Gold Star added to his ribbon. Adding a 2 next to his Silver Star would mean he basically won a Gold Star. Anyhow, there's talks that he will get a Medal of Honor. I'm pretty excited. We'll see how that goes. Once again thank you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:43, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem! I've gone ahead and added ribbon images to the awards section in the body of the article, along with the actual ribbon devices mounted on the ribbons. Note that a single gold 5/16 inch star on the Silver Star and Purple Heart medals indicates second awards, while a single silver 3/16 inch star on the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign medal is worn in lieu of five bronze campaign stars. I've linked those devices as well so that a reader can read up on the specifics. If they are considering him for the MOH and there are references for that, I'd go ahead and add that to the article as well. It may or may not happen, but the fact it's being discussed is noteworthy. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:01, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Azure, I ran into something interesting. A source says that he "His honors included two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars, two Purple Hearts, the Navy Cross, a Navy Unit citation, a Presidential Citation with two stars, and an Asiatic-Pacific Area Campaign Medal with seven battle stars." Turns out Navy Unit Citation and Presidential Citation are separate awards. Shouldn't they both be added separately? Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Had to step away for a bit and just got back to my computer. Reading the above, it may well be that he has more medals and ribbons (possibly a second BSM, plus a NUC, plus the source says he has potentially seven APACM campaign stars and two more awards of the PUC), in which case depending on the source we can probably justify updating and adding additional awards into the article. The NUC ribbon is actually the "Navy Unit Commendation" rather than the "Navy Unit Citation", but typos and misnomers are common in records and news reports. Let me start with this: can you refer me a link to the source that gave you the above information? Or is it in a book and/or paper journal? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay it is source #11 of the article. It is from Armenian International Magazine, which is a very respectable journal/magazine edited and published by the Armenian community. I retrieved the full text of the source through the California State University of Los Angeles article database. Here's a very large and important chunk of the article:

I italicized something that I thought would be very useful information for the article. He shot down two Japanese fighters. But in what battle? Unfortunately I don't know. Also, I ran into trouble with his contributions to the Battle of Saipan. I cannot find any information on it. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:10, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Researching and digging up the information can be daunting when it happened six to seven decades ago. On the reference with additional information on his decorations and awards, that's a good find and would justify updating the tally. Since decorations accumulate as a person goes along, it's not surprising that one source may list one group of medals while a later source includes yet more. I will swing by the article shortly to update the ribbons and totals... AzureCitizen (talk) 22:33, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay looks great now! Thank you once again. My next article is going to be on George Juskalian. Stayed tuned! :D Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:55, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Editor's Barnstar

		The Editor's Barnstar
		Heres an Editor's Barnstar for your tireless efforts and helpful contributions. Thank you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:34, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I too am interested in these types of articles and ensuring due credit to service members for the awards they've earned... AzureCitizen (talk) 21:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have you seen this picture? Itll give a better view. I'm going to have to deep deep to find confirming sources for all these medals. Boy it's going to be hard. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Response at TP of my sandbox. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I appealed WP:RSN. Lets see what they say. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:38, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads-up... I will keep my eye on the thread.  :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have very good news! I found a source that has provided all the medals Juskalian has won. Turns out you were correct in all of them. Kudos to you! I also contacted the Juskalian family and they're going to send me some pictures of George Juskalian during his military campaigns and post-military life. I am very excited for that one. Also, sorry for my delay on the article. I am waiting for these photographs to arrive so I can put the article with the photographs up for DYK. Thereafter, I'm going to try to place it for FAC. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's great and glad to hear it - you've done a lot of work getting the article built up and fleshing things out. I'll stop back by again sometime to check things out. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article George Juskalian is up. I put it up for DYK. I also placed you as second author of the article if you don't mind. Cheers! Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article looks great - good work! AzureCitizen (talk) 21:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal is fine with me. Thank you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 23:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to hear it... if I can help in any other way, just let me know. AzureCitizen (talk) 23:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I saw you undid one of my previous edits. That edit is not a vandalism and it actually does not change the nature of following parts of the text, as it can be clearly read who is the victim and who is the perpetrator. Please discuss beforeundoing. Thank you. 141.136.222.153 (talk) 14:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, this edit was not vandalism and it was previously discussed with all the people who were editing it in last couple of hours before the edit was done. As this is encyclopedic content, I do not impose any opinion or subjective content, because it is not ethical. The first sentence of that article is very clumsily written. It should be changed or the edit left. Thanks. 141.136.222.153 (talk) 14:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused — did you mean to ask someone else? I don't remember interacting with you or with this IP before, and I've never paid attention to the Munich massacre article. Of course I'm happy to help, but unless I know better what's going on, I can't do anything. Nyttend (talk) 17:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, I assumed you remembered from the other day, and realize now you may not have been following that closely. Take a look at the IP user talk page at User_talk:141.136.222.153 and you'll note that you blocked them, followed by DVdm posting below your block a few minutes later indicating this IP hopper from the 141.13* range (from Slovenia) keeps returning and getting blocked. The edit they made on the Munich massacre article is the same one they made the other day, and they again exceeded the 1RR restriction. Make sense now? Sorry I was so cursory in my prior posting. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:34, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, sorry; I'd completely forgotten about the block the other day. Your tone sounded as if you were in the middle of a conversation or continuing a long-running discussion (I saw the text before your signature and thought it was Platinum Star, who routinely reports IP edit-warriors to me in this manner), so that's why I wondered if you asked the wrong person. Thanks for the clarification: it reminded me quite well, and I've blocked this IP. Nyttend (talk) 19:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically, after I blocked him he replaced the contents of his talk page with "Fascist Wikipedia, as always". Funny, someone attacking Jews calls us fascists! Talk page access revoked. Nyttend (talk) 21:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That editor certainly has a perspective problem. Good to keep your sense of humor in considering the irony.  :) For the long term, it's clear they are a problem because they keep IP hopping and returning. It's frustrating for editors trying to clean up the situation because while the edits are clearly problematic, they aren't prima facie vandalism or BLP violations, and since that particular article has a 1RR restriction, regular editors stop at one repair while the IP will keep going with reverts and hop IPs again shortly. What's the solution? Range block? Semi-protection? Not sure, etc. AzureCitizen (talk) 21:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Semiprotection is the way to go. I'm not going to do it now, but feel free to let me know (but with context :-) if you find this guy coming back. Nyttend (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Roger that, thanks... :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure enough, it's the next day, and he's right back at it again: Special:Contributions/141.136.209.52. AzureCitizen (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

{{Uw-ipevadeblock}} blocks levied, and page semiprotected. Nyttend (talk) 19:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That'll help. Interestingly, the IP repeatedly hit the Vaginismus article with a comment on feminism, right up till April 5th, when Joe Decker took action and protected the page for ~10 days, expiring April 16th. Sure enough, on April 16th (today), the IP shows back up again to do the same thing. Something tells me that as long as he can keep jumping IPs, he'll keep up at this, and if he happens to jump to new articles that have no connection to the ones he has attacked previously, it's difficult to detect him. Prior pages edited include Nazi hunter, Simon Wiesenthal, FEMEN, Marc Lepine, Gloria Steinem, and Feminazi. There's probably no way to range block him because the range of IPs is too great. AzureCitizen (talk) 20:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed that this IP (like the other one) blanked his talk page after I blocked it; I think I'll include no-talk-page in future blocks if I remember. If you remember, please remind me to prevent talk page access if you come across any more IPs that this guy is using. Nyttend (talk) 02:01, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As long as you can demonstrate that it's the same person, you could propose a community ban on him. Go to WP:AN and provide evidence why (1) it's the same person, and (2) he's been thoroughly disruptive across multiple IPs. Among other things, this will mean that you'll be free to exceed 1RR (and even 3RR) in reverting his edits, even when they're not 100% blatant vandalism. Nothing really can stop someone with a dynamic IP who picks vandalism topics with Special:Random. Nyttend (talk)

I just thought of an abuse filter. Filters are great for blocking people who follow patterns; if you think that there's any pattern to his vandalism, you should request a filter. I'm not familiar enough with filters to determine whether this guy's abuse is consistent enough to be blockable by a filter, but some people at WP:AN or WP:ANI will be able to determine that. Nyttend (talk) 16:03, 17 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your message. You're probably right I have now reverted my last edit and am staying away from that article for the time being. Thanks!! Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, glad to help as it's easy to get caught up in the moment! Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	For your work on Boston Marathon bombings. Bearian (talk) 22:26, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you accuse me of being someone else? Is it because I think someone is being bullied and that a reasonable compromise can be reached? Curious. Sun's Hawaiian birth certificate is a legal document, and on other legal documents Sun claimed Hawaii as his place of birth. Now it does seem that the preponderance of evidence supports the views that he was actually born in China and that claims to a Hawaiian birth were motivated by expedience. But the idea is to provide the documented facts and allow the reader to decide, or am I wrong? The edit-war combatants who want to eliminate any mention of alleged Hawaiian birth from the section on birth are both rude and determined to confine any such mention to a section in which they can contextualize it so that it fits a particular interpretation of Sun's behavior. That is they draw conclusions for the regular wiki readers. But then this is what they accuse the other fella of. Near as I can tell you are operating with a double standard. You should block all parties to this dispute. Were I to use your sleuthing techniques I would say that you and the other two combatants are one in the same, an unholy trinity. Sure looks like collusion, at least. I hope wiki will die, and this little scuffle is a good example of why it should die.Gomezerella (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You seem like a decent person. So just a few words. I've no intention of re-entering this dispute. First, apologies for the impolite remarks. I don't like wikipedia, for reasons that have been clearly stated by others. But then of course I can just ignore it. No need to let it bother me. Just in balance I think it to be bad for the world. Still, not a justification of rudeness. And for that I apologize, to you. Second, the sockpuppet charge is just wrong. Friend, yes. Two people, also yes. I don't like being falsely accused. Third, I believe a double-standard was employed. To be fair, perhaps the others played by the rules of the game, as defined by wikipedia, but I think that might not even be accurate. In this instance the Sun birth issue had been discussed on the talk page, and while no consensus had been achieved, it has been left unchanged for a long time, until this recent group of people stepped in. By the rules of the game, they should have first addressed outstanding issues on the talk page. Fourth, my friend and I did make ample use of the talk page, but the other guys kept eliminating even that. I don't think they are capable of looking at the facts. They seem also embarrassed by the revelation that their treatment of this issue was based upon decades-old textbooks, and two other people: an anthropologist who just mentioned his thoughts on the matter in a book published by a low-level academic publishing house, and a civil servant in San Francisco who made some heavily edited comments in a pro-China publication (I guess you don't read Chinese), at the time when Sun's birthplace issue resurfaced a few years ago. Five, they repeatedly derive conclusions from facts, despite using that charge against others. Six, as a distant relative of Sun (hence my interest) it seems to be that he really was born in Hawaii (yes, the information is contradictory in places), but evidence published in reputable sources probably better supports the conclusion that he lied for purposes of expedience. What we wrote about the expedience issue is that it was not just a matter of Sun being so dedicated to China that he white-lied to save China from its enemies, internal and external. (I am of Chinese/Taiwanese ethnicity.) Seven, I would like to see the edits we made, at least to the talk page restored. But we won't restore them because wiki expects a mea culpa that requires admission of guilt for things of which we are not guilty. Again though, I do apologize for the rudeness to you. Eight, the sections relevant to Sun's birth are poorly drafted, both prose and content. Both should be re-written. Nine, a polite recommendation: rethink your dedication to wiki. Time could be better spent. My humble opinion: the rules of the game (and let's just say I choose not to play the game) are rigged, perhaps with good intentions, but in such a way that people with too much time on their hands and with ideologies to push can promote propaganda via this vehicle. This puts you in a bad position. Ten, consensus building is not a friend of truth, especially when consensus building does not require revelation of real identity and when it comes down to who has the most time to spend. Enough though of this. Good wishes to you.00:04, 24 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taichi101 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for stopping by and expressing your thoughts, and apology accepted in kind with a much greater understanding of your perspective. I don't know if I can respond to every numbered point but if I may, let me add:

• I believe you could indeed be telling the truth when you say that you and your friend are actually two different living breathing people. Although rare, this does happen in a phenomena known as meatpuppeting (check the link). Unfortunately, for Wikipedia's purposes, it's very difficult to tell the difference unless a checkuser shows the IP addresses of the two individuals resolve to locations that are far apart, and the SPI in your case revealed that the two accounts were related by technical evidence. As a result, meatpuppets get treated like sockpuppets, and Wikipedia's policy says that remedies used for one can be applied to the other. Had both of you been independent editors with established histories, rather than brand new accounts that showed up within hours of each other on the given article advocating the same changes, it probably would have been a different story.
• If you're a distant relative of Sun, I can totally appreciate your interest and knowledge in the article. I'm a caucasion (European ancestry) living in Illinois, and know next to nothing about Sun Yat-Sen and his place in history. Maybe I'll do some reading and catch up on that...
• If you return to the article's Talk Page and try again, I think you could make some headway in changing the article. Just stick to the facts, cite your sources, and make policy based arguments. Avoiding commenting on other editors and instead comment only on the article changes at issues. Often times, that approach will get others to see what you're driving at and come to terms with the issue; if others try to obfuscate and pursue an agenda instead, it becomes apparent to other neutral editors who are watching the subject and they'll step forward. There are always ways to bring in independent editors automatically too, by way of an RfC (Request for Comment). I can show you how to get one started if you'd like.
• I noticed today for the first time that there is additional mention in the article itself that speaks about Sun obtaining a Hawaiian birth certificate, you can see it in this section: Heaven and earth society, overseas travel. Did you notice that too? I bring it up just in case it impacts what you're discussing.
• On Wikipedia and spending enormous amounts of time getting sucked into things, I can't say that you're wrong. Wikipedia can and does consume large quantities of time editing, re-editing, and negotiating editing disputes. It can be very habit forming, akin to an addiction, and there are times when I tell myself I really should break away from the compulsion. Sometimes I take breaks, but I usually find my way back here one way or another when I'm interested in looking up a particular article and notice something, or see significant changes to articles I've edited previously and feel compelled to consider them. I think it's a natural human reaction really. If you've thought this through and have truly decided to never edit here again yourself, I understand.
• If, on the other hand, you want to make another go at proposing edits on the article's discussion page, and have the time and patience to work things through, I will definitely stop back by there and try to ensure that fair discussion takes place. Regardless of who wrote the comments previously (you or your friend), if you cut-and-paste prior comments back to the page using the firstly-created account (Taichi101), there is no legitimate reason whatsoever for others to revert them now that the temporary block on the firstly-created account has expired. Up to you...

Good wishes to you as well and kind regards... AzureCitizen (talk) 02:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. No, thanks for the invitation, but I at least won't go down this path anymore.

2. I understand the reasoning process that motivated the accusation. Just want to point out that it is erroneous. Also, just as a general point, I'm not certain a policy of this sort effectively blocks serious content, when people who may only know one another through cyberspace are still able to effectively bully someone. In saying this, as before, I do agree that a cooler attitude on my part might have helped. Even if not though, civility is important.

3. As for the mention of Sun's birth certificate, as I recall that was there before. That was what the one person was emphasizing. What bothered me is that contextualizing it in that way is a means of drawing a conclusion that the "birth issue" has nothing to do with where he was born. Placed there it better fits the expedience narrative. Unfortunately the Sun birth controversy coincided with the Obama birth controversy, and the two became conflated, such that Hawaii was regarded as generally playing fast and loose with the issuance of these. My views: in Obama's case it was ludicrous. In Sun's case, it is a contentious issue, that at least merits mention.

4. Let me try to provide a broader context here--just my views, based upon facts, but my views. Sun's status in the China-Taiwan dispute is that of a unifying figure, since officially he is regarded as playing an important role in the founding of both countries. I'm greatly simplifying here, but among those of us who hate the fact that Taiwan is the only democratic country on earth that goes unrecognized by the UN and by most influential countries, being lumped with China--in any sense--is unpleasant. Sun has nothing to do with Taiwan, since Taiwan was a colony of Japan when the Qing Dynasty was overthrown in China in 1911. Even Sun's involvement in that is a contentious issue, but you know how these things go with national/political symbols. To get to the nut of the issue, Taiwan is already being absorbed by China, and every means possible is being employed to justify this, as well as justify the threat of force to occupy Taiwan. The Sun birth issue is minor, just a part of the narrative that emphasizes his "Chinese-ness." The issue here has more to do with corrupt ideas about racial purity, which are always reprehensible. One reason why I won't jump back in to this business is that there are simply too many people with time and agendas--they'll wear you out, unless you decide to take a stand on this issue and devote all your time and energy to it. This issue isn't worth the effort. As for those that bear more directly on the attempts to occupy Taiwan, wikipedia provides a forum for the One-China people to rationalize what they do. This is related to my unkind observations about wiki--too many people take it is a reliable reference, and (please forgive me for saying this) it is not.

As above, best wishes to you.Taichi101 (talk) 05:32, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Camp Liberty killings may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "[]"s. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave my operator a message on his talk page. Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 15:55, 21 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place at Talk:Tea Party movement/Moderated discussion to get consensus on finding and addressing the main points of contention on the article, and moving the article to a stable and useful condition. As you have contributed to the article, your involvement in the discussion may be helpful. As the discussion is currently looking at removing a substantial amount of material, it would be appropriate for you to check to see what material is being proposed for removal, in case you have any concerns about this. If you feel you would rather not get involved right now, that is fine; however, if you later decide to get involved and directly edit the article to reverse any consensus decisions, that might be seen as disruptive. Re-opening discussion, however, may be acceptable; though you may find few people willing to re-engage in such a discussion, and if there are repeated attempts to re-open discussion on the same points, that also could be seen as disruptive. The best time to get involved is right now. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:50, 25 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's a dispute at Talk:George Juskalian on whether or not a local newspaper is a reliable source for the claim that Juskalian's awards are "among the rarest bestowed on United States service members". You've been involved with the article in the past; could you please take a look? Huon (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads-up. You may have seen my prior comments on the article's Talk Page regarding "rarest" and "highest". In the interests of long term article stability, I'm wondering if the editor who keeps changing the text would agree to retaining a stabilized version if there is a compromise on the key word "rarest", given arguments like this have a habit of popping up again and again with other new editors. I'm going to try talking with him first, and seeing where things lead. In any event, thanks for your support at the article too, I appreciate that you've been trying to stop the edit warring. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to note that even though I reverted you (as being pre-mature with it under discussion) I think that you probably have the best idea of the "reasonable middle" on this. Unfortunately the reality is that going to the "reasonable middle" at the beginning of the process is a recipe for ending up at an unreasonable place. North8000 (talk) 15:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can appreciate the difficulties of trying to find common ground when positions are drawn and stakes escalated, and took no offense to the revert. For me, I'm not invested in the article much and am not overly concerned with the outcome; my goal has been to help break the deadlock and indeed get the subsection to a state closer to the middle ground, where maybe folks can reach a compromise. If not, at least the divide will be lessened.  :) AzureCitizen (talk) 15:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cool! North8000 (talk) 01:26, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you once again for your updates. I will contact the Kizirian family for some photographs of this man. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:39, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Turns out he has a Bronze Star with a Gold "V"...is that a very different medal? Proudbolsahye (talk) 03:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, AzureCitizen. :) rJay here. This is regarding the revision you undid on the talk page of American POWs in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. I did some extensive research on your claim, and you are correct. However, for future reference, you should use the following page(s): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable I found this to be more explanatory, and on-topic. The page you referred me to ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTFORUM#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought ) is about the actual article code of conduct, and is off-topic. It only referenced talk pages to tell noobs about the talk page feature, but not to argue, or forumize the talk page. It was slightly confusing for a moment. Thanks for understanding, and for your time. rJay (talk) 04:26, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for stopping by rJay, and for expressing your consensus. In pointing out what you're saying above, are you talking about the fact that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TPG#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable (otherwise known as WP:TPNO) says at the bottom of it's list of unacceptable behaviors, "Do not use the talk page as a forum or soapbox for discussing the topic"? AzureCitizen (talk) 04:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed I was. :) As that is, after all, the page of dos and don'ts regarding talk pages, rather than a quick reference to talk pages on a page about articles. Minute, I know, however, had this been someone less knowledgeable than myself (not elevating myself to a level on which I am not), they may have been confused to a greater degree than I. rJay (talk) 08:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC

By any chance, did you happen to notice that the text "Do not use the talk page as a forum" is actually a wikilink, and that if you click on it, it goes directly to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTFORUM#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought (otherwise known as WP:NOTFORUM)? And then read #4 at that linked location?  :) AzureCitizen (talk) 11:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On 6 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article George Juskalian, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that George Juskalian (pictured) had honors that are amongst the highest given to any U.S. military personnel? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/George Juskalian. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I assume that you noticed that the title of this article was changed a day or two ago, from "Killing of" to "Murder of". If not, I wanted to make you aware. Also, I am closing out the thread of our discussion on my Talk Page. Let me know if you have any questions or want to follow up with me. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On 25 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Harry Kizirian, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Harry Kizirian was awarded the Navy Cross for killing 12 Japanese soldiers while being unable to walk? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Harry Kizirian. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello AzureCitizen, how have you been?

I found another gem and her names Sue Sarafian Jehl. She's in my sandbox. Her decorations need a little bit of touching up. I would love if you can help out. I ran into something that I don't know how to express. Under her presidential unit citation it says, "(SHAEF) Supreme Headquares, Allied Expeditionary Force" I bet those are her unit names. However, how would I be able to express that on the decorations section? I hate to bug you like this all the time Azure but our articles have become a big success for good reasons! Cheers! Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm good, things are going well.  :) I've sorted out the decorations and will post on the Talk Page in just a minute regarding SHAEF... AzureCitizen (talk) 12:09, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Azure. I posted the article up. Everything looks good. I'll send it to DYK soon. Regards! Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that you had some interaction with User:Xenophrenic on the David Stannard article and Talk page, and other articles. I've started an RfC/U regarding Xenophrenic's editing habits. Please feel free to participate if you have anything to add about your experiences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Xenophrenic

regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Azure,

I hope all is well. I stumbled upon Kizirian. What I found interesting is that he was awarded WW2 Victory Medal when he wasn't sent to the front at all. However, he did serve during the time of the war in San Diego. Should I mention that he served in WW2? I personally believe he should since he received a medal for it. What do you think? Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Am doing well and hope the same for you. I read the source citation that mention John Kizirian received 66 decorations and awards during his career - that's a lot! I'll respond on the article's talk page regarding the above... Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A couple years ago, you created a redirect from "Dining Out" to Dining in. These are two different, although similar things. The Dining In article doesn't reflect this and really a better compromise solution could have been found. Was there any discussion before you made this redirect? Chris Troutman (talk) 15:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Chris. I've been to a number of dining in's and dining out's over several decades of service so I am familiar with the differences (and have played the role of Mr. Vice when I was a junior officer). I don't recall any discussion back in April 2010; I made the redirect because the dining out article was a stub with no references and the essential concept was already contained (with bolding) in the lede of the dining in article: "An optional formal dinner, known as the dining-out may include spouses and other guests. The dining-out follows the same basic rules of the dining-in, but is often tailored to minimize some of the military traditions and be more interesting to civilian guests." I don't think it's really worthwhile to have a separate stub when the overall umbrella concept for dining in's, dining out's, mess nights, regimental dinners, etc., is well covered in the existing article. Do you think it would be worth building a fully fleshed out dining out article (with references) in this situation? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 15:51, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I agree with the concept that they should all be consolidated into one article. I would suggest that perhaps a more general article title like "military balls and dining functions" could have been used instead. While the sentence in the lead section helps specify that the dining out is similar, I think it connotes all these events as being a dining-in. I guess if there was no discussion for a redirect then no alternatives were considered. I can start a discussion on a name change and rectify the problem. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, a more general article title might help facilitate that and then redirects could be arranged to point all the specific titles (like dining in, dining out, etc.) to that article. I'm actually overseas right now and just happened to get online today to take care of some things, so I may not participate till later. All good... AzureCitizen (talk) 18:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just letting you know that I initiated an RfC regarding Duckworth's DOB: Talk:Tammy_Duckworth#RfC_on_providing_full_date_of_birth. Cheers, Edge3 (talk) 02:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think "he slept with a gun under his pillow" in his introduction is necessary? The same wording is repeated in his Post-war trauma section. It implies he slept with the gun lifelong otherwise it wouldn't be in the introduction. Gun talk like this in the introduction may lead some vets with PTSD to put guns under their pillows since Murphy did. I got ________ in the Talk section over this gun issue, maybe you have something to say, if you can? — Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs) 07:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello YahwehSaves... I've been travelling for the last week so I didn't have time to respond to your post until now. With regard to whether or not the lead should contain the item on the gun/pillow/PTSD, it appears from the Talk section that this is a matter of some longstanding disagreement and removing it is opposed. If I may suggest, I think your best course of action would be to start an WP:RfC on the article talk page and see if others have a different opinion. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 08:35, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aoidh (talk) (formerly User:SudoGhost) 14:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed your helpful clarification. Would it be clearer if the article said "... sentenced to 35 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge upon release"? -- 101.119.29.14 (talk) 02:00, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Understandably, there is much confusion over when the dishonorable discharge will take place. It will most likely happen within three to six months after all appeals are finalized. When a Soldier is sentenced to prison and a punitive discharge, the execution of the discharge is temporarily stayed pending an automatic appeal to the Army Court of Criminal Appeals (ACCA) where the dishonorable discharge will be reviewed along with the prison term. Hypothetically, that decision could then be appealed under discretionary review to the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces (CAAF). During this process, however, the soldier will remain a Private/E-1 incarcerated at the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth and will be what AR 190-47 Chapter 3-1 calls a "sentenced prisoner". Later, after review of the dishonorable discharge is complete by the ACCA (and the CAAF, potentially), the dishonorable discharge will be ordered to be executed by the General Court Martial Convening Authority exercising jurisdiction over the soldier. At that time, instead of being an incarcerated Private/E-1, the prisoner will become a discharged former soldier who continues to be incarcerated at a military prison as an inmate until completion of the sentence. So... to sum things up, Manning is still a soldier, and will continue to be so for some time while incarcerated, but will most likely be dishonorably discharged before the prison term is complete. AzureCitizen (talk) 02:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On review, I agree that text citing the Huffington Post should be removed. However the section that remains covers the Businessweek article and isnt descriptively headed by the lable "Amenities." The article cited raises a broad range of issues, including questions on financing, impropriety in contracts with vendors and administrator salaries, and questionable academics, not just "amenities." Needs a broader heading. If you object to "criticism" how about "challenges in the press?"--KnowledgeisGood88 (talk) 02:14, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've replied on your Talk Page - you'll find my comments there. Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I beleive changing the title to "Amenities " and moving the section to the bottom of the article obscures the issue, and it would be better left in current position with a neutral but descriptive heading. Thanks for looking at it. KnowledgeisGood88 (talk) 13:31, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gaba has not addressed the weight issue at all. I waited some time for a valid reason for why these events are significant to her career in the larger sense and their continued response is "These are RS". While I don't want to edit war it doesn't appear that Gaba actually wants to discuss the weight aspect. You would have to agree that her feud with Morgan is nothing at all, especially now that he no longer even has that show. The Akin stuff is equally meritless. Arzel (talk) 16:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Arzel. I agree the stuff is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, not very significant, etc. I tried to word the entries themselves to be as neutral-POV and fact-oriented as possible (they were originally slanted against Loesch). What I care about most is ensuring that the text isn't written in a disparaging tone as it's a BLP. With regard to WP:WEIGHT, my understanding of weight is that it matters when we're talking about competing perspectives on what the mainstream and non-mainstream views of something are. For example, in a discussion on whether or not the Earth is round or flat, appropriate weight needs to be given to the views. With regard to Loesch, what happened with Akin and with Piers Morgan isn't really about weight. These events just happened to occur in the course of the subject's career, and they are just trivial in that sense (keep them in or drop them, no big deal) rather than being a WP:WEIGHT problem mandating their removal. If I may say, I sense that one of the conflicts going on here is that one of you may be somewhat anti-Loesch's politics, and the other positive-Loesch politics, and that the real argument devolves down to a sense of whether or not these items are seen as a positive or a negative when viewing the subject. Assuming I'm correct, I'm not quite sure what we can do about that to make everyone satisfied with the content. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:30, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call myself pro-Loesch. I would call myself anti-BLP attacking. I appreciate your attempt to remove the NPOV and BLP issues, but what is left is meaningless as the whole context for their original inclusion was to attack Loesch. The Morgan part is particularly worthless. There is no long term historical value, it doesn't even go into why it was an issue because it would have been undue weight. The Akin stuff is equally meaningless. No one seems to care about that twitter other than the left which was in the middle of trying to destroy Akin at the time to the point that anyone that said anything that could be remotely viewed as defending Akin was to be attacked as well. WP has enough partisan bitching on BLP articles, they should be reserved for truly significant issues. Loading up articles with insignificant "apparently negative" trivia quickly reaches a point where it is clear that the point of the BLP is to attack the subject. Arzel (talk) 17:07, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! EarwigBot ^{operator / talk} 01:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

but it's fine for that editor to revert/delete/walk over my work, correct?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whenever an editor makes good faith efforts to improve an article (in this case, more than two dozen individual edits), and you find that you disagree with some of the material, it would be better to re-edit the specific material you disagree with rather than mass-revert everything. If same situation were to happen with something you'd worked on, I would gladly return the courtesy. Make sense now? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:21, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is an RfC in which your participation would be greatly appreciated:

• Talk:Gun_control#RfC:_Remove_Nazi_gun_control_argument.3F

Thank you. --Lightbreather (talk) 15:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the notification. I will give some thought to participating again there. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:21, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think your input is needed at the General Barrow site and Chesty Puller site. The main problem is the retroactive Combat Action Ribbon. The demand is for a written source. My view is not every sentence in an article requires a source so how can every military ribbon require a source when you know the guy(s) qualifies for it from other given sources. The WW2 Campaign Medal and Victory Medal for example, if you know the guy was in WWII (and has combat decorations in article) but their is no source verifying those awards in the article that he was awarded those (like so many because he was out of the service and didn't get some awards), is the article not supposed to allow those (in this case 2 CARs for Barrow and Puller, WWII and Korea) because he maybe didn't apply to get those? YahwehSaves (talk) 06:47, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at the thread that I think you're referring to, currently seen here I believe. I can appreciate that you're striving to get it "right" and awards/decorations/devices on biographies of late persons present peculiar problems like this because we often don't have the proper sourcing to go off of, yet we have a pretty good hunch that something should or shouldn't be based off of experience and deduction. Unfortunately, when there is a conflict over one of those questions, the rules of Wikipedia support the position that without sourcing, challenged content is to be removed. In those cases, whether or not something is truly correct loses out to whether or not it is truly verifiable. It can be an unsatisfying result, but at the end of the day it's necessary for the Encyclopedia's stability and legitimacy. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:21, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello AzureCitizen, Long time no hearing from you. It's Proudbolsahye. I forgot to mention to you that I changed my username. I'm still very much appreciative of the work you have helped me with when it came to the various articles I have worked on with you. Anyhow, just wanted to stop by and say hello. Happy editing! Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:30, 3 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Étienne Dolet! I didn't realize you'd undergone a name change, but I'll remember that going forward. Glad I was able to help with those articles and I find that work enjoyable.  :) I would have responded to your comment sooner but I've been away on service duties and only recently returned home. Take care, AzureCitizen (talk) 04:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that you have been provided with a direct Wikipedia guideline that says that there are some circumstances for which it is OK to have a criticism section spelled out. You have to specify exacly why you think that the guideline does not apply. You cannot just express opposition, which is all that you've done so far. Victor Victoria (talk) 23:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just got back from dinner, hence the delay in responding (although I don't think I'll be on Wikipedia too much more for tonight). If you want to precise and specify things exactly, you should take note that WP:CSECTION isn't actually even a guideline, it's just an essay. However, even if WP:CSECTION was a guideline (or going even further, an actual policy), the overall WP:CSECTION is stressing that we should generally avoid creating sections focused on criticisms, and the sentence you have quoted on says "In some situations the term "criticism" may be appropriate in an article or section title..." (bolded for emphasis). Thus, it's up to editors and local consensus to weigh that aspect and decide whether or not creating a criticism section is appropriate. I've invited others to join in (and suggested you employ WP:THIRD or RfC if they do not) because I suspect our current 1:1 disagreement will quickly clear up if other editors think creating a criticism section is a good idea (or a bad one). Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since you brought up the fact that WP:CSECTION is not policy (something that I didn't), you are losing ground on deleting the section heading, as there are no policy guidelines saying that "criticism" headings are forbidden. Note that in order to delete content, you have to show that keeping the content in question is a violation of wikipedia policy, so by saying that WP:CSECTION is not policy, you are weakening your argument. Victor Victoria (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We're talking about an editorial decision on whether or not to create a section header here (a bit of stretch to call it "content", as if it were sentences or paragraphs of reliably sourced and relevant content material that I was deleting)... nonetheless, I must disagree with your claim that I have to show keeping the content in question is a violation of Wikipedia policy. We use editorial discretion all the time on whether or not we think should something should be included or not included; if one editor adds something and another disagrees with it and removes it, there is no requirement that the editor who removes it to prove that it violated a Wikipedia policy. Perhaps you'd like to show me a policy that says otherwise? AzureCitizen (talk) 01:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I want to emphasize again that you cannot use the fact that the essay says "may" to block the section heading. I made the claim that the requirements for the section heading have been satisfied, so you have to make an argument why my claims do not conform to the essay. Victor Victoria (talk) 00:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid you're simply incorrect on that point. I will continue to exercise my editorial judgment that we do not need to create a criticism section in the article; if you think I am somehow violating a policy in this regard, please feel free to refer me to it and/or take this issue up on the appropriate noticeboard. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 01:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your oversight in the Joel Fuhrman article. There seems to be fairly little investment in countering some of the scurrilous namecalling. I think that the article needs a team of writers who would adopt the article and dramatically improve it. MaynardClark (talk) 13:53, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for such an untimely reply, I've had very little spare time to devote to Wikipedia for the last few weeks. While I certainly don't espouse the views of the subject myself, I think there has been a tendency for some editors to push for including negative material, which speaks more to their own POV rather than building a quality BLP. BLPs are supposed to be written conservatively and err on the side of caution, hence anything involving namecalling and labeling should be screened out if possible. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You closed without comment a conversation in which you were not involved. Dunno your reasoning but I've reverted. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 14:08, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It was obvious that the thread was deteriorating into pointless bickering and personal attacks; as an uninvolved editor, summarily closing it was an attempt to get the participants to let it go. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 02:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see you also are interested in the Walsh case. I think it's fascinating case but it's impossible to tell the whole story inside the Walsh BLP. Clearly, I would include more there than others, but at best it's only a question of where to draw the line. Writing within a BLP, there is always going to be a balance issue. But in a breakout article, where the subject is the clearly notable topic of the "John Walsh plagiarism scandal", the whole thing can be about just that topic. New article, new rules on balance, it appears to me. We could write more freely about the timeline of what happened, the NYT evidence, initial responses, effect on the campaign and the protocols at the War College, etc. At that point, I'd happily support still more trimming in John Walsh. (To me, John Walsh the person isn't at all interesting. How the plagiarism incident played out is.) I think there's an interesting story here, loads of fabulous sources, and an article that can be written within the guidelines. Since creating a breakout would obviously make certain people very unhappy, I've posted some additional thoughts and sought advice at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#John Walsh (U.S. politician) plagiarism scandal. Perhaps you would care to comment. Better still, what I'm really hoping is that you might also be interested to help create the article. Msnicki (talk) 17:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Msnicki: I clarified this a couple of times before but you might have missed it. WP:BLP applies to all articles, breakout or not so your assumption that different rules would somehow apply is faulty. Also as mentioned elsewhere given the consensus on the talk page against splitting the article, the creation of the article anyways would be disruptive - you should be engaging with the half-dozen other editors involved there, not circumventing them. Please note that I am not necessarily opposed to expanded coverage of the plagiarism scandal in the main article; I just oppose addition of the material in article space while it is still under discussion per BLP's requirement for caution. VQuakr (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And as I said to you at WP:NPOVN, I have heard your opinion, which is exactly why I've been seeking advice. Msnicki (talk) 18:08, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The applicability of BLP is not an opinion; it is expressly stated in the policy. Why did you state that it would not apply if you had already seen my clarification? VQuakr (talk) 18:45, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're entitled to your opinion that your interpretation is correct. But my opinion is different and I'm entitled to mine as well. I think it should be possible to write a compliant breakout article on the topic but I know that would make you and others very unhappy, so I'm seeking advice before I decide what to do. If you have additional arguments, perhaps you might present them at the NPOVN discussion for broader consideration. Msnicki (talk) 21:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello folks... I got back online a little while ago and saw the above, and tried to read up on all the posts regarding the breakout article issue. I can see that it's fairly contentious right now and people have strong opinions about this. I don't know what the outcome of an RfD would be, or if the material is well suited to creating a comprehensive and worthwhile encyclopedia article. I don't particularly want to get dragged into the fray, and often don't have time to edit Wikipedia extensively (this morning was an exception), but I would offer this piece of advice (if advise is being sought): you may want to consider creating the article in sandbox space rather than starting it out in main space where apparently it will trigger a lot of controversy. Then you can build it up into something more developed, with potential input from editors both in favor of and against it, that can transitioned to main space with a lot less acrimony after people see it fleshed out first. Would that resolve everyone's concerns and provide a path forward in figuring out whether or not a breakout article is the right choice? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You read my mind. :) What I'm trying to do now is figure out the exact boundaries of what can be written and how such that a breakout would not violate our guidelines. Once I think I have a good handle on that, I'm expecting I would start with a draft of my proposed article in my own user space and invite others to provide feedback before moving it into article space. As you observe, this is a contentious topic so I'm anxious to figure out where I'm solid ground and where, not so much. Msnicki (talk) 21:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, the correct location to have the discussion is the article talk page. The non-process skirting way to handle this is as a WP:SPLIT, because the content needs to be due in the main article for it to be due in a daughter article. If Msnicki feels that the viewpoints on the article talk page are not diverse enough, dispute resolution methods such as WP:DRN or a request for comment are the path forward. Thanks for your work on the article, BTW. VQuakr (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Msnicki: I just do not see how you feel that "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, including talk pages, edit summaries, user pages, images, categories, lists, persondata, article titles and drafts." can be characterized as an opinion or interpretation. That is a direct quote from Wikipedia policy. VQuakr (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your PoV at Pat Quinn's infobox. However, it's been the practice for years, to include the elected or designated successor-to-be, in the infobox, while keeping out the lame-duck's departure date. Note that this is currently done for Sheila Simon, aswell as the other outgoing governors & lieutenant governors infoboxes. Recommend you take you concerns to a wider audience, via the appropiate WikiProject, as you shouldn't be singling out Pat Quinn. :) GoodDay (talk) 12:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is a straw poll that may interest you regarding the proper use of "Religion =" in infoboxes of atheists.

The straw poll is at Template talk:Infobox person#Straw poll.

--Guy Macon (talk) 09:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your revert on my change yesterday. If the article is currently reduced to a redirect, yes of course it shouldn't go there. You may be aware that Iraq War order of battle was retitled Iraq War order of battle 2009 some years ago. If the Afghan War OOB article is no longer properly up to date, I will in the same fashion put the best-date-possible on the Afghan War OOB article and resurrect it: it's of historical value, not just of value during the period of the war in which NATO & U.S. admitted they were engaged in direct combat. Happy holidays Buckshot06 (talk) 20:05, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Buckshot. Sounds like good idea - I hate to see information like that being lost as well. By turning it into a historical article, it can still be preserved without having a "not up to date" problem. Thanks for stopping by to explain what's going on... :) Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This enquiry, [1] appears somewhat inappropriate to me, what matters is the neutrality, encyclopaedic character, and accuracy of an edit. However your statement does not accurately characterise my convictions at all. Cpsoper (talk) 16:08, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality, encyclopedic character, and accuracy of edits is the overriding concern of all edits in actual article space. On Talk Pages, however, editors engage in discourse to get an understanding of the positions being raised, and their clarity is sometimes obscured. Your "convictions" are not an issue here, but the point you're trying to make is worth trying to understand, and you began your response with "Thanks, on the contrary, it shows...", leading me to believe you're trying to say that Ham is correct in his claim that science is actually being taught as a religion in public schools. If that is not what you're saying, I would think it would be simple to reply there saying "That is not what I'm saying," but by all means feel free to drop the issue and make no response if that is what you desire. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Forward, Together Forward" is the Official University Motto.

LTLT is/was some optional add-on tag slogan to the logo redesign back in 2011. YFOF may be the new LTLT but neither is the Official University Motto. That remains "Forward, Together Forward."

"Forward, Together Forward" appears on Memorials to the victims of the 2008 incident because it is the University's motto not the other way around. The scholarships set up in honor of the victims also takes its name from the Official University Motto (FTF) as do many other tributes, sayings, nicknames, etc.

The Official Motto for Northern Illinois University is "Forward, Together Forward." Please undo your change, thank you.

Also, that user made another incorrect change. The University's official colors are cardinal (red) and black, which he/she would have known if they had bothered to check the footnote prior to making the (wrong) change. There is also this: http://www.niuhuskies.com/trads/niu-trads.html "Note to graphic artists and printers: The NIU CARDINAL red is Pantone Matching System 1935." I corrected the change to the "Colors" section and referenced the link above in the new footnote, as it is much clearer. --ForwardNIU (talk) 18:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia, your interest in collaborating and contributing here is appreciated. I will transclude your remarks to the article's talk page, where the conversation and efforts to improve the article can continue. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seemed appropriate to delete the material as it was already determined to be BLP violations and the BLP investigation reviewer thought you did a good job on the article edits. It seemed to violate BLP which I believe takes precedence over Talk page guidelines but I have no intent of trying to take it out again as it was a pain with the filter and my IP because of my defiance to register. It is your call but I believe it will only lead to greater problems in the future. It also makes no sense to post material on a talk page that clearly violates WP:BLP. BLP is something that has a high level of oversight and immediate deletions are recommended upon finding violating material. Thanks for the notice. 172.56.15.75 (talk) 15:55, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your concerns and sentiments. I have inserted a hide-text bar so that the quotes are not readily visible when a reader visits the page unless they click the <show> button. Does that help? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:08, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It definitely helped the page layout so comments below it were not in such a small font. I am trying to get through to John as he has much to add if done according to guidelines. 172.56.15.75 (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like things have settled down now. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, AzureCitizen. You are welcome to edit the GSL article, however, in your edit summary you stated intrastate is "OK" to add into the article, except, the cites you added don't mention GSL. I did not revert your edit, as you did not add "intrastate" to the article, but feel free to discuss it with us on the talk page. Thanks. Darknipples (talk) 19:27, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Darknipples. In case there's confusion going on here, my edit summary said "Added federal law regarding unlicensed persons selling firearms to other unlicensed persons, i.e., intrastate=okay, interstate=prohibited." What the "i.e., intrastate=okay..." meant was that with regard to federal law, intrastate was permitted and interstate was prohibited; I wasn't expressing any opinions beyond that. I did see that there has been a lot of debate on the Talk Page about what the scope of GSL is. Perhaps an RfC would be a good way to bring in the community to help figure out what that should be. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:46, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

	The Barnstar of Diplomacy
	Your comments typically have this quality to them, and there's certainly no shortage of that on WP. Well deserved. Darknipples (talk) 04:45, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask you to copy edit this article? I appreciate your kindness.Salman mahdi (talk) 13:27, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Yes, I will certainly try to copy edit it sometime when I can concentrate on it. Lately I've been travelling a lot and haven't had time to do much Wiki-editing; upon my return, I will take a shot at it. Take care, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:11, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re: this edit, I'm fine with it but we have two conflicting NYT sources: as you say "gadfly" says he was asked to leave, the other says he was forced to choose. The text in your edit maintains that contradiction: "he was asked to leave" and "he chose activism." I don't think it's significant enough to start a section on the talk page but I wanted to explain my reasoning and convey my non-objection. James J. Lambden (talk) 17:30, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the sources are conflicting. O'Keefe was asked to leave because of the problem his continued activism would cause to the institute's non-profit status; when that happened, he faced a choice. If he had told them "wait, okay, I will give up the activism", it would have become a non-issue and he could have stayed. O'Keefe decided to stick with the activism, however, so he had to honor their request that he leave. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:54, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

AC, would like to know where do you get that the "V" is currently authorized for the suspension ribbon "or" service ribbon of a medal as you have in the introduction and if the article title was "V" Device for years why is it "V" device now (or am I asking the wrong person which means perhaps I'm not supposed to be asking these questions)? YahwehSaves (talk) 02:58, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to being worn on the suspension ribbon or the service ribbon of a medal, when a service member wears their uniform, they are either wearing the usual ribbon rack or they are wearing all their full medals with suspension ribbons. They would never wear both at the same time, i.e., the usual ribbons and the full medals simultaneously. Thus, in a manner of ordinary phrasing when referring to a member wearing an award with a "V", they wear the "V" on the suspension ribbon or its corresponding service ribbon. Does that make sense to you now? Perhaps you were interpreting it differently?

With regard to case, upper versus lower, for the "d" in device in the article title, the Department of Defense usually refers to devices with a lower-case d because it's not a proper noun. See this volume for example. It's replete with instances of referring to devices like the "V" device and others with a lower-case d. It's also true that in some spots within the document, they uppercase the d, usually when listing it in a heading or a list of items where they have capitalized everything else too; this is probably due to their formatting rules for when they write manuals. Meanwhile, Wikipedia has its own guidance and policy about article titles, and in situations where something is not a proper noun, the rules say that you capitalize the first letter of the first word in the title, but lower case the words that follows. I realize this is inconsistent with the other articles on Wikipedia right now about US Armed Forces devices, such as the "M" device, "A" device, etc. The correct answer is probably that they should all be synchronized and titled the same way, i.e., all uppercase or all lowercase starting letter for the word "device". A good way to resolve that would be to start a conversation at the Article titles talk page, and ask for community guidance as to whether or not the letter d in the word device should be upper case or lower case when used in article titles as a matter of policy. Sound good?

Lastly, with regard to using parenthesis in article text, I know you frequently add your thoughts that way to article content. When you do that, try using this trick before you hit the "save" button: Re-read the portion of text where you have just added some parenthesis, and re-think how the text you just edited has been worded. If you parse through it carefully, you will usually figure out that there is another way to rephrase the sentence or add more material with additional sentences such that using parenthesis isn't necessary. Hope that helps. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:52, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think we both know the DoD has been making mistakes with their awards manuals, for example, they had the Navy PUC with authorized 5/16" stars instead of 3/16" stars, FMF Combat Operations Insignia instead of FMF Combat Operation Insignia, and a Medal of Honor with a "V" Device which I doubt the naval services ever officially accepted and maybe the USAF did not accept that either, ever see proof that it was accepted? If you recall, a recent DoD manual referred to devices as "service devices". Now, they dropped that.

It appears you're saying that since the DoD has made typos and mistakes, the fact that they keep using lowercase d is just an accident, and that it's a really a proper noun which should be capitalized throughout. I don't really think that's the case (no pun intended), but maybe you could convince others of that. Have you given thought to going to the Article Names talk page (linked above) and starting a community question on the matter? At least that would bring in others including Wikipedia editors who are better experts at that sort of thing.

Reply to your 3 paragraphs above:

1) I see what you are saying now. I guess you did not understand what what I was saying. As is, your sentence is not right, "corresponding", and two "thats". The service ribbon is part of the award/medal and one "that" is enough. The military considers the service ribbon to be a portion of the suspension ribbon of the medal. https://img6.fold3.com/img/thumbnail/313656106/300/400/0_0_300_331.jpg

You have - A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs, worn on the suspension ribbon of a medal or its corresponding service ribbon, that denotes that the medal was awarded by the United States Armed Forces for valor in combat.

The "V" Device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs, that if authorized, may be worn on the suspension and service ribbon of certain United States military medals to denote an award for valor in combat was received.

If you don't like the two "thats", or the word "corresponding", we can easily remove those. I didn't like your use of the phrase "that if authorized", either. As the article has been moved to "V device" now as opposed to "V Device", we should probably stick with "V device" until the page is moved back, which probably won't happen unless the matter is taken up on the Article Titles talk page. AzureCitizen (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment regarding the use of "and" versus "or": Your point is that you can wear the "V" on both the suspension ribbon and the service ribbon, which is why you are phrasing it as "and". My point is that a service member would never wear the medal with suspension ribbon plus the service ribbon at the same time, hence why I keep phrasing it as "or". Are you aware of any other military award articles on Wikipedia that would help illustrate how it has been phrased elsewhere? AzureCitizen (talk) 13:56, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

2) Now DoD is going from V Devise to V device? Maybe there are other kinds of "V" devices in machine shops or something? You're the person that named this article "V" Device, maybe you should stick with that for now? The other military letter device articles have "The "M" Device. The "A" Device... isn't it better to be consistent for the time being?

Those pages are still article-titled "M Device", "A Device", etc. They should remain "The" instead of "A" until (if it ever happens) the inconsistency gets sorted out with regard to article. Meanwhile, the "V" device article has been moved to "V device" with a lowercase d. In keeping with Wikipedia style, that means the first sentence of the lede should say "V device", not "V Device". For comparison, look at other article tiles that start with a capital letter but then have lowercase letters. Here's one: Symmetry in biology. Here's another: Frame bundle. Can you show me examples where an article title has lowercase letters in the title, but uppercase letters in the opening of the lede? AzureCitizen (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

3) I think parenthesis are useful sometimes, maybe even in the infobox too.

Unfortunately, they aren't in keeping with Wikipedia's style. If you write something at first using parenthesis, just go back over the thought you're having and try re-writing it without the parenthesis. Are you aware of any other articles on Wikipedia where text prose contains parenthesis? AzureCitizen (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: I think its better or useful to have something in the infobox for First award, rather than have nothing there. Say, "1946, or 1947", you agree? It seems very doubtful any V's were made and issued in 1945, if they just decided on a V device in Dec. 1945 (have a 12/13 date for decision) and if the Vs had to be applied for. Those in service in 1946, may have gotten the V's first for WWII service is my guess, that is if the V was available in 1946. Far as consistency, place the all the ribbons examples in the article in order like the Joint Service CM ribbons - far left side. Does not look right as is. YahwehSaves (talk) 04:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the infobox first award parameter is that we simply don't know when it was first awarded, hence we're stuck speculating, which is not encyclopedic. That's okay. When something isn't known, the right answer is to just leave that text parameter field blank, so that it doesn't show up on the active page. It doesn't really detract from the article that it's known, does it?

With regard to the ribbon box examples, I will move them back so that the ribbon images are flush-aligned to the left side again. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 13:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I did not agree with the "or" use is because I've seen manuals use "and", not "or". Unless you have seen it somewhere with "or"? Also, its usually written as "suspension and service ribbon" of a medal. As it is written now, you make it sound like any medal can have a "V", don't you? The medals the V applies to seem to be all dual-purpose medals. That's why I put "certain medals", but its actually certain decorations or certain combat decorations. The V does mean, stand for, or represent "valor", so it denotes valor does it not?. When worn on a dual-purpose decoration, the "V" denotes the decoration which was awarded for heroism in combat, was awarded for valor. The article is about the V device, not a service member wearing a medal or service ribbon which has a V.

You have: A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs, worn on the suspension ribbon of a medal or its service ribbon, denoting the medal was awarded by the United States Armed Forces for valor in combat.

A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs. The device is used as a ribbon attachment to denote valor on certain United States military decorations awarded for heroism in combat. The "V" is worn on the suspension and service ribbon of the medal. YahwehSaves (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Been gone on orders without access to the Internet. I've simplified it again to be very succinct and direct:

"A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs which denotes a medal was awarded by the United States Armed Forces for valor in combat".

This makes it very simple and clear to the reader what the "V" is for, without getting in the more nuanced details which follow in the second paragraph. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:31, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its simply not clear enough since the V device involves multi-purpose medals only. Again, you make it look like any medal awarded for valor can have a "V"; the Silver Star is awarded for "gallantry in action"; the Bronze Star which was intended for minor acts of heroism can be awarded for "heroic achievement or service". Only certain medals that are awarded either for heroism or meritorious service like the BSM ... are authorized the "V" device; the valor device is used on some lower ranking decorations.

A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs, which is is used as a ribbon attachment on United States military multi-purpose decorations to denote an award for heroism (valor) in combat. YahwehSaves (talk) 03:42, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Due to our experience, we're aware of the differences between the Silver Star, the Bronze Star Medal, and other medals with regard to the "V" device (be it with one, or without one). For the typical uninformed Wikipedia reader, this can be confusing. Your edit that the device denotes valor "on multi-purpose decorations" does not actually explain or clarify for their understanding what that difference is, does it? Linking that phrase to an article that does not explain it either makes it more confusing. With regard to your addition "used a ribbon attachment to denote" (note grammar mistake), the first sentence of the next paragraph explains that, so we don't need to be redundant. In any event, I will take another stab at revising the text again, with the intention of trying to make the distinction more plain. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk)

Its still confusing... makes it sound like all decorations can have the V. This time will not forget about the 2nd paragraph and make that easier to read and understand too.

A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs which denotes that a decoration was awarded by the United States Armed Forces for valor in combat instead of being awarded for meritorious service or achievements.

A "V" device is a metal 1⁄4-inch (6.4 mm) capital letter "V" with serifs, which when worn on certain decorations awarded by the United States Armed Forces, distinguishes an award for heroism or valor in combat instead of for meritorious service or achievement. YahwehSaves (talk) 01:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would you change the article title of Fleet Marine Force Combat Insignia to the correct title of the device - Fleet Marine Force Combat Operation Insignia. Its causing confusion there. Thanks YahwehSaves (talk) 02:46, 25 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I should have mentioned this to you first before editing at this article: You mentioned or lectured to me about not using the parenthesis. I removed a "parenthesis" in the Mickey Mantle box and the "for the"... which I thought were both not necessary and improved the infobox (yes or no?), and was given a crazy "WTF", "what are you doing", revert by User:Yankees10.

Teams
New York Yankees (1951-1968)
New York Yankees, 1951-1968

MLB debut
April 17, 1951, for the New York Yankees
April 17, 1951 - New York Yankees

Last MLB appearance
September 28, 1968, for the New York Yankees
September 28, 1968 - New York Yankees

He also has under:
"Career highlights and awards", which should be Career awards and highlights:
"20x All-Star", he list 20 games in parenthesis when a "game" is not an "All-Star", which could or should be
"All-Star, 16x": .... He credits several players infoboxes like Rick Ferrell as a 1945 MLB All-Star when there were no 1945 MLB All-Stars officially selected that season due to the war, the 1945 MLB AS Game was cancelled and not played. Someone should ask him or lecture him "what's he's doing" with 1945 All-Stars in several infoboxes .... YahwehSaves (talk) 01:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've been gone for the past week. Looking at the above, I would say it would be best to look at what the normal conventions are for Wikipedia articles for the style in which that kind of information is displayed for consistency. With regard to parenthesis, it's best to avoid using them in ordinary article text (always see if the sentence can simply be rephrased, such that parenthesis are not necessary), but there are some things in which using parenthesis is normal and expected, like when giving a date or date range after a proper noun. For example, "Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)" would be an expected way to use parenthesis in a Wikipedia article, rather than writing "Abraham Lincoln, 1809-1865", etc. Are there other baseball related articles you can look to for comparison with regard to how they display that information in the infoboxes? With regard to incorrect information about whether or not a given player was a Major League Baseball All-Star, I have no expertise in that area, but that sounds like a factual item that should definitely be brought up on the Talk Page, in order to get to the truth and to settle the matter. Sound good? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 14:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are two articles titled All-star and All-star game and only one article Major League Baseball All-Star Game.

If you can, would you begin an article titled "Major League Baseball All-Star"; that is if it is All-Star/All-Star Game rather then All-star/All-star Game? YahwehSaves (talk) 23:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find the newly begun article here: Major League Baseball All-Star. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 23:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Added content and sources. All-Star players are not All-Star Games; there were no official MLB All-Star players, teams, and game in 1945 because of the cancellation of that season's All-Star Game. Are you following the article/talk? YahwehSaves (talk) 19:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I've been extremely busy of late and haven't spent a lot of time on Wikipedia following articles. AzureCitizen (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I expanded the Major League Baseball All-Star article, if you get a chance take a look at it now. The question is whether it should remain a separate page? I would think so. 05:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talk • contribs)

Hi, I'm Elliot321. AzureCitizen, thanks for creating Major League Baseball All-Star!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Thank you for your contribution. However, it doesn't cite any sources. Please add more sources and lengthen the page. Thanks.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse.

Elliot321 (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I needed to make a Silver Citation Star revert at the military award devices article since "Citation Star" had already been listed there with the other devices. You may want to change the article "Silver Citation Star" to or back to "Citation Star" (World War I, Silver Star) (?).[2] There is also the Navy Commendation Star which is a 3/16" silver star too. Maybe this change back to Citation Star needs to be in talk page at the Silver Citation Star article (could also mean silver citation, star)? Citations for gallantry in action were awarded, the 3/16" silver star was a ribbon attachment. Perhaps the article should be titled "Citation Star (Silver Star) or "Citation Star" (3/16" Silver Star)? This award for valor which was used as a ribbon attachment, and sometimes referred to as a Silver Star Citation,[3] appears as "Silver Star" when listed with and under other valor awards back in that earlier time period (MOH, DSC, Silver Star...), it was first awarded in 1920's after and for WWI citation recipients. YahwehSaves (talk) 22:59, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For now, I've moved it back to the original "Citation Star" since it appears that is the original (and correct) name, and no disambiguation is required at present because it is unique (no other countries in the world use "citation star" to describe something). Sound good? AzureCitizen (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its ok now, unless more wording is applied to the title like Citation Star (silver star). You added the Citation Star was replaced by the Silver Star Medal in 1932. The Citation Star was incorporated unto the medal I read - see Silver Star Medal section. I did not want to use word "incorporated" in the article. The medal is actually 2 stars if you want to mention that. May or not be mentioned in the "Silver Star" article.YahwehSaves (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The current DOD Manual says Silver Star Medal (SSM) only.[4] Will you consider to change the article title from Silver Star to Silver Star Medal? YahwehSaves (talk) 01:41, 14 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, I am unable to get that page to move to "Silver Star Medal" when I try; there is an error message saying that the assistance of an administrator will be required. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Article is "Silver Star", but maybe should be Silver Star Medal since DOD 12/2016 is naming it that now which more or less Army will too. After all it is a U.S. military "medal". YahwehSaves (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. I have zero tolerance for abusive sockpuppetry of this type and would fully support an SPI. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:33, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@DrFleischman: Hello! Thanks for posting a note of support here. I imagine we both find it disgusting that a male political-POV pusher would pretend to be a woman protesting gender abuse on a BLP in an effort to vote stack... and this coming after they promised to abandon their system-gaming ways the last time they were unblocked. I first encountered him doing this stuff back in 2010... showing up with a sock claiming to "vote". Even then, he pretended to be a woman (diff). He tends to be overconfident about his edits without realizing the behavioral evidence is obvious, and isn't afraid of Checkuser because he knows to use different PCs at different IPs (diff). If you check his Talk Page, you can easily retrieve the posts by admins regarding his block for vote-stacking stocking in 2013 and his conditional unblock in 2015 to refrain from socking. I was just going to post on one of the previously involved admins page with diffs, but on reflection, perhaps it should really be an SPI to properly stop the abusive behavior and make the sanction stick. Unfortunately, I am sitting in a USO at an airport right now, getting ready to leave shortly for another flight (going home to spend Thanksgiving with the wife & family)... so I won't have time for a couple days to give this the proper attention it deserves. Do you have any time to move an SPI forward (which I'll join & contribute), or do you want to standby and wait until I have time to get this process started later? Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 21:39, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have no issue putting together an SPI, but this one looks particularly tricky if we want to maximize the chance of it being successful, and there is a lot of historical stuff I'm unfamiliar with, so I'd prefer to be patient and leave it to you. The good news is that admins are more likely to be receptive due to their edit history and unblock condition; the bad news is that the SPI might depend on behavioral evidence, which is thin given the most recent sock's short edit history. I'd think the best approach would be to show that this episode mirrors the pattern. How do you know they're actually a man? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:51, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to the sock master being male, I can't point you to a specific edit in their personal edit history, it's just my assessment based on what I've seen for a long time now. For good reason, I took a deliberate extended break from all things Wiki over the holiday and while visiting with family. Upon review of the article's Talk Page tonight I see that nobody really fell for the puppet, probably because it's obvious it's a sock posting contrived nonsense... especially the ridiculous claim that they were following instructions from a "private feminist forum" on how to edit on Wikipedia against male "hostility" and "bullying." GandyD calling them out shows that an actual woman editor quickly sees right through it; predictable that would happen when a male pretends to be a victimized feminist sock to push his partisan politics. Also, did you note the boorish attempt to imply "Ass" at the front of my name in their hasty reply? That misspelling was not an accident on his part; while comical, it's just another sign that gives him away in his aggressive behavior. In any event, I understand your point that while the sock is obviously a sock, it's difficult to tie the sock to the sock master based on a small number of edits. What is obvious to me might not be so obvious to the admin who happens to action the SPI. On the other hand, judging by the way sock and sock master went silent on the talk page shortly afterwards in the face of the "vote" becoming 17 to 3, I'm sure he realizes it's a lost cause now. He may well read this post here and feel compelled to don the sock again, but it's not going to help him get his way, is it? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 03:15, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]