User talk:Centaur271188

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No live updates 0306kev00 (talk) 14:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@0306kev00: Do you mean the Finland-Kazakhstan match? I do not think I violated live updates rule. I followed uefa.com match report and after it had announced match end, I published my changes. Centaur271188 (talk) 15:00, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You put it in the game. I watched it on TV. Just wait a few minutes, you don't have to immediately Register. 0306kev00 (talk) 15:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC). You entered it before the final whistle. I watched on TV. Just wait a few minutes, enter the result directly next time and I get a 3rd opinion 0306kev00 (talk) 15:07, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@0306kev00: Probably uefa.com match report was faster than your TV broadcast. Centaur271188 (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Great work in maintaining the different goalscorers section for the 2022 FIFAWCQ for all the different confederations. Currently there are two modules - 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification (AFC) and 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification. The second one has not been maintained over time and is thus just sitting their without any useful info.

Here is a proposal I needed help with - how about if we move all the relevant FIFA scorers data across all confederations on the second module. I know it would be very tough due to its own limitations but it can become one hell of a data source which can function all the different confederations just perfectly. For example - the AFC scorers maintenance has been done quite nicely.

We can then move the first module (the AFC one) to the 2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification page, where from this moment on it would have info about the Asian qualifiers goals. As things stand we do not have a module using which we would be able to record the playoff round and the third round for the AFC asian qualifiers in the same manner.

If you are interested in this, do ping.--Anbans 585 (talk) 23:12, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anbans 585: Hi, thanks for the commendation :) About module:Goalscorers, I had some discussions with Jts1882 and S.A. Julio back in 2019. [1] [2] As far as I knew, the module at that time could only support 2 levels of qualification campaign (confederation -> confederal groups/rounds), so our plan is using normal templates for standalone pages, that are world article, inter-confederal play-offs, and CONMEBOL. Hopefully Jts1882 and Julio can update us on the module's current status. About converting the current AFC module for Asian Cup purpose, or creating a new one, we again have to rely on Jts1882 and Julio - damn, our Lua workforce seems very limited :| Centaur271188 (talk) 11:44, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The module hasn't changed much since the previous discussions, just a few minor updates and features. Coincidentally, I made a small modification to the module sandbox earlier today, adding an option for Julio. I must admit I'm struggling to follow some of the code after all this time; the module really needs an overhaul to simplify/rationalise the code.

I did have a quick look at what might be needed for an integrated FIFA would cup qualifying list of goalscorers. The code could be modified to aggregate the goalscorers from several confederation qualifying tournaments. However this would only be useful if all confederations have qualifying data in module subpages. A list of top scorers from only some confederations has no value. At the moment only the AFC has a module subpage. Oceania might present a challenge. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:47, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anbans 585 and Jts1882: Guys, it is OK to continue the discussion in my talk page. @Jts1882: is it easy to convert the current AFC module for Asian Cup, or modify its code a little bit to create a new Asian Cup module? Centaur271188 (talk) 15:24, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Centaur271188 and Jts1882: One way to use the existing system would be to define the rounds as 'CAF-First', 'CAF-Second', 'AFC-First' and so on, on the modules page. The maintenance may be a bit difficult for users, but once the data has been formatted here, it would be easier to manage. Does this seem to be a good idea?--Anbans 585 (talk) 16:01, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The way things are set up, each qualifying tournament needs its own data subpage (see comment below). So 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification (AFC) works with the module, but 2022 FIFA World Cup qualification won't. I think I can make the changes to take the goalscorers from several such data subpages (i.e the confederation subpages) but handling of one big data page seems more difficult. —  Jts1882 | talk  16:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

Let's try and get the terminology straight. There is one module which has the code for the system (Module:Goalscorers). The data on goalscorers and competition structure are place in the data subpages, which contain data objects/arrays (called tables in Lua) with the goals by each player, competition structure, group make-ups, etc.

Based on memory, the module handles competitions with any number of rounds, one of which can be a group stage. So it should work for European World Cup and Euros qualifying and their finals, and qualifying and finals for the African and South American confederations. I'm not familiar with the Asian systems, but it looks like the World Cup qualifying should work as is (it has so far). The Asia Cup finals should also work, but the qualifying would need a modification to accommodate the second group phase (which might be tricky without breaking anything else). —  Jts1882 | talk  16:13, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: OK, I stand corrected :) Firstly, about the Asian Cup qualifying data page (clarify: I think a normal template is enough for the final tournament). Can we build it using the current structure of World Cup AFC one? Specifically, can data.updated, data.groups, data.rounds etc. be copy-pasted into Goalscorers/data/2023 AFC Asian Cup qualifying, and that page will work normally? The data.active_countries must be changed, of course. Secondly, I agree that a single data page for the whole World Cup qualification seems too big. Finally, I would be very grateful if we create data pages for CAF, CONCACAF and UEFA qualification. Centaur271188 (talk) 16:45, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree with Centaur271188, and I can probably help you with the creation of different page for each confederation. @Jts1882: A way to group all the content of a particular world cup qualifying cycle can be by showing all the different links to different confederations inside one grouped link. That way redirecting to it and its related page would be also. The reason I suggested this was because I was unsure if a 'See Also' type thing can be done here. Also yes, Centaur271188, if you copy all of this content and create a page for AFC qualification then that would work, and yes the active countries would have to be changed there.--Anbans 585 (talk) 17:54, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anbans 585: Done. [3][4][5]. @Jts1882 and S.A. Julio: If this copy-pasting works properly, then I think I know how to make CAF, CONCACAF and UEFA data pages :) I will begin after October matchdays, hopefully they are ready before November ones. Centaur271188 (talk) 05:42, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments:

• The rounds are specified as data.rounds = { group = 3, secondround = 4, thirdround = 5, fourthround = 6 } . This is confusing as the second round is the group phase and round labelled "group" is in fact the first round with 12 teams, not the 46 listed in data.groups = { A = { "IRN", "JPN", "KOR" ... "PAK", "SRI" } }. Although the goalscorers for the first round and second round do seem to be given correctly:

• A comment needs to be added about the three goals awarded to Sri Lanka for the forfeited game. These are not included in the goals total.
• The "group" round is handled differently to allow the goalscorers for each group to be listed separately in their group qualifying articles. If this isn't required (i.e when there are no separate group qualifying articles, unlike the Euros qualifying), then you can just use data.rounds = { firstround = 3, secondround = 4, thirdround = 5, fourthround = 6 }. Then the data.groups = { A = { ... } } is unnecessary.
• If you wanted to have the groups available, the "group" round should be placed instead of "secondround" and groups A-H defined in data.groups = { A = { ... }, B = { ... } ... H = { ... } }.
• However, the module only handles one group phase and the option might be better reserved for the final group phase.
• The bolding of players still left in the tournament is wrong. This requires data.active_countries = { ... } to be updated.

—  Jts1882 | talk  08:00, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: Thanks for the feedback ^^ This is my first data page, and I still know very little about Lua, so I tried to alter the original code minimally.
1: When S.A. Julio first created the World Cup AFC data page, he used 'firstround' instead of 'group', until this edit [6]. I can only guess it has something to do with the newly created 'data.groups' parameter and/or the 'A = { ... }' format. I changed the term to 'firstround' and tested the data page, then I got this red notice "Lua error in Module:Goalscorers at line 162: bad argument #1 to 'pairs' (table expected, got nil)." I think Julio had to keep this awkward code due to the module's nature.
2. The forfeited Sri Lanka v Macau match and its 3 goals should be addressed (our number and FIFA number differ by exactly AFC's 1 match and 3 goals), but here we should focus in the module and data pages :)
3. I think Julio uses the data.groups as a kind of country data storage. I deleted it and tested the data page, then I got another red notice "Lua error in Module:Goalscorers at line 163: attempt to index local 'v' (a number value)". Maybe we need to list all relevant countries somehow in data pages.
4 & 5. Thanks, I understand.
6. I think I did the data.active_countries correctly. You know it is the Asian Cup data page, don't you? The countries eliminated in WC qualifying 1st round and advanced to WC qualifying 3rd round are not active; obviously, the remaining countries are. Centaur271188 (talk) 12:27, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On #6 I would have thought the top scorer, Ali Mabkhout of UAE, is still active because the UAE have advanced to the Third Round of qualifying.

Another non-module issue is the status of the North Korea games. They are being counted at present.

A few tests on Module:Goalscorers/data/2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification suggests that the code assumes a group stage somewhere, hence the Lua errors (all our test tournaments had group phases). This must have been why Julio put in a group. I need look into this further and put in some error checking so a group phase is not required. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:10, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: Thanks for explaining. Now I also realise Julio's plan: data.groups and 'A = { ... }' format is to assemble all AFC countries in a big group, otherwise the module will not 'understand'. Centaur271188 (talk) 14:29, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some modifications to the module sandbox so it has more error checking and behaves as I described above. It no longer throws errors because of that strange dependency on a group phase being specified. The examples above use the module sandbox with Module:Goalscorers/data/2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification/sandbox, which is currently set to use a group phase in the second round (see example above for group A only). A switch to a simple second round aggregating all groups can be used by commenting out one of either lines 46 (for individual groups) or line 47 (for single "secondround"). If the latter is all that is needed all the group data can be deleted. —  Jts1882 | talk  10:58, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: Thanks. The new code and sandbox module look great now, even though the group feature would not be used, unless someone creates separate group articles for WC AFC 2nd round, or splits the goalscorers list - we can consider splitting it into groups, because the big list there seems not very readable. Centaur271188 (talk) 13:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought separate group articles would be more likely for the second group stage in the Third Round. It would be better to reserve the module group round for that. I created the groups to test my module modifications. I've now removed the separate group stage with this edit so you can see the difference in the examples above. —  Jts1882 | talk  13:33, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: The 2nd group stage of Asian Cup qualifying has not begun yet, so currently we can only see group feature's effect if using it for the 1st group stage. The separate group articles or separate lists should be discussed more elsewhere, in article talk page and/or WikiProject Football. Anyway, in WC AFC data page we can use group feature for the 1st group stage (WC 2nd group stage only has 2 groups), in Asian Cup it would be the 2nd group stage. Centaur271188 (talk) 14:09, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: Hi, have the sandbox's modified code been implemented in the module main page? I would like to test the new group feature. Thanks :) Centaur271188 (talk) 17:49, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: A new problem caused by the group feature: when it is activated, the "|round=all" list (used in confederal main pages) only includes group stage's goals. Therefore in the CAF data page, I have to use the AFC's awkward format :| Centaur271188 (talk) 20:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Centaur271188: Sorry for not getting back to you on the status of the sandbox version. I want to make the update when I have time to make a few more tests and sort out the rounds/groups data in 2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification and 2022_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(AFC). Please confirm these qualifications both use the same matches in rounds one and two and then go their separate way.

On the error with |round=all, what value does |group= have? A quick look at the code suggests it currently needs |group=all to be set (which should be unnecessary). —  Jts1882 | talk  06:58, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed the data for the Asian Cup in (2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification/sandbox to use a group stage. The example (last one) above seems to work correctly. —  Jts1882 | talk  07:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Module updated from sandbox and the live version now used in the examples above. I've also edited the rounds in the 2023 AFC Asian Cup qualification and 2022_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(AFC) articles (plus the rounds pages and data submodules). As far as I can tell the numbers are correct. —  Jts1882 | talk  08:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: Firstly, yes, the World Cup AFC and AFC Asian Cup qualifyings have the same 1st and 2nd round before splitting. Secondly, I did not set any value for "group" or "round" parameter, "round=all" is just an expression. Thirdly, everything seems OK now, I have just used the group feature and split the list in the CAF 2nd round page. Finally, I think we can remove some redundant codes in Asian Cup and WC AFC data pages: the unused data.rounds lines and the X group in data.groups. Thank you very much :) Centaur271188 (talk) 12:07, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Centaur271188 and Jts1882: I was thinking that the grouping is going to happen for different confederations on a single goalscorers module, which does seem, that it can be executed with the new updates made in the modules. The current format of dividing goalscorers by group over different rounds for CAF and AFC seems a lot different than the central goalscorers page we had before. Is everyone okay with the current format?--Anbans 585 (talk) 18:03, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anbans 585: I did not ask anyone, just did a WP:BRD and changed it myself. Anyway, I stated my reason in edit summaries: at ~200 goals and ~100 scorers, the list already seems difficult to read, it should be split if possible. This AFC 2nd round (and 2018 one) list has ~500 goals and ~300 scorers, surely unreadable for most of us.
P/S: I still think a single data page for the whole World Cup qualification is too big. And as Jts1882 said earlier, it would require data pages of all confederal campaigns. While the module is better for AFC, CAF, CONCACAF and UEFA, I think standalone pages (CONMEBOL and inter-confederal play-offs) only need a simple template. Centaur271188 (talk) 20:07, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@PeeJay: Hi, what do you mean by "doesn't work"? [7] Centaur271188 (talk) 15:58, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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I note the partial revert of one of my edits. When I watched the draw on YouTube (and it is still available on YouTube) they specifically mentioned that the games will be hosted in Qatar. Since that is from FIFA themselves it is reputable enough. I am not familiar with the best way to reference a video under our referencing formats. Are you able to help ? Or otherwise indicate why we cant use FIFA as a primary reference source for this information ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Matilda Maniac: Thanks for explaining, I was unaware of the YouTube video when reverting those changes. I have just seen it, and FIFA is an accepted primary source, so I agree that we can use it. But I prefer text sources (more user-friendly), so I would like to reinstate your changes and cite this [8]. Is it OK? :) Centaur271188 (talk) 01:19, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is perfect, as it is text, and now is a secondary source. I made these "in Qatar" changes to a number of articles (maybe 8 of them?), and I am not sure how many of them you changed (so much activity recently), so I suggest you go back to your contribution history for what changed, to add the reference (but as a full reference, e.g. ^[1] ) to all of these articles. Thanks for the follow-up. Matilda Maniac (talk) 02:15, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Matilda Maniac: I am quite sure that there are only 6: the world main page, the intercontinental play-offs one, and 4 confederal ones (AFC, CONCACAF, CONMEBOL and OFC). As of now, this qualifying campaign is the only (and likely the last) project that I follow actively, so I probably would not know or care if you make that change outside those 6 articles ^^ Centaur271188 (talk) 02:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I wont have time. Pretty sure some of these were on articles for specific rounds as well. Maybe check my contribution history. Matilda Maniac (talk) 02:46, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Matilda Maniac: Sorry, I forgot CONCACAF 3rd round and AFC 4th round. Centaur271188 (talk) 03:00, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I merely removed the venue reference for Poland in the final because I thought now that they are officially in the final the venue reference is no longer needed seeing that it had been pre-established before where Poland could have played their final just in case they would have qualified (reality now). Island92 (talk) 00:31, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Island92: Generally we need no sources for the stadium information specifically (match reports already include it), but not this case yet. It would be truly 'no longer needed' after a few days ^^ Centaur271188 (talk) 00:43, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok my friend. Island92 (talk) 00:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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