User talk:Jts1882

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Full reference citation added to fix borken link. Jts1882 (talk) 08:15, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Love your work, Jts1882 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jts1882/phylogeny/Caniformia Regards, William Harris • (talk) • 08:05, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@William Harris:Thanks. As you probably saw I have been updating the dog cladogram with Linnaean names and adding subfamily and tribe names. I just hadn't got around to change the cladgram on the Canidae page. I've also changed the icon for the domestic dog following your change on the Canidae page. My one issue is the icons with white backgrounds. It would be nice if there were transparent backgrounds. Jts1882 (talk) 14:01, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the clade template to use a Lua module instead of the template language. This adds a lot more flexibility for what we can do with the cladograms (see Mustelidae or Felidae or User:Jts1882/phylogeny/Felidae). So if you have any ideas for new features, add suggestions here. Jts1882 (talk) 14:01, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jts1882. Your work has added a much higher level of quality than has existed in the past here on Wikipedia, and is a credit to you. The Lua module looks amazing. I will give a ping to the canis "Icon master" and see if we can get some coordination going. He may, or may not, be interested. Regards, William Harris • (talk) • 20:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Fixed. Jts1882 (talk) 11:24, 17 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Jts1882: you seem to be the wizard of the speciesbox and subspeciesbox. In these boxes, would you change colocolo to colocola, please, so that there is consistency with the Latin names in the respective texts. Thanks. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for creating Hyperailurictis, Jts1882!

Wikipedia editor Boleyn just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

The [P[WP:BURDEN]] is on the creator to add sources; please do not create articles without references.

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Boleyn (talk) 11:32, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies. I have no idea why I undid your edit on the Small Indian Civet. Absolutely dreadful miss in so many ways. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 11:20, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jameel the Saluki: No problem. I assumed you read my edit comment to mean someone else had proposed this, whereas I hadn't said more as the article text seemed clear enough on the source. Scrutiny is good, as long as we reach conclusions that ensure accuracy.   Jts1882 | talk  11:36, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, it seems that we were fooled by the language used in that document about reclassifying subspecies of lions, besides tigers, See the Surprise and my latest reply in talk page for the lion. Leo1pard (talk) 04:12, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jts1882- I went ahead and cleaned up the Diet section of Arabian Wolf. Better? I also added a part about the weird fused paw pads which is apparently true. Thanks for your input- Jeff T.Makumbe (talk) 02:52, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So I'm using this example to find |status=VU, but I cannot find an appropriate API example which gives me |status_system=IUCN3.1. I could use the API to get the URL for a genus+species, then parse that to obtain |status_system=, but I'd rather not (because its both clumsy and unnecessarily increases server load). Do you know how to get both of these parameters using only the API?   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:18, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been able to find the version number with the API. They no longer use the version number in the recommended citation format for species, with the year used for both year and journal volume (e.g. Panthera leo^[1]). Perhaps the year of the assessment could be used to assign the assessment version (see versions). Alteratively, the doi contains the year and the new format of version number (e.g. 2016-3 in the example).   Jts1882 | talk  15:57, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, then I guess I will have to use the HTML to obtain |status_system=. They still provide the criteria version, and I don't want to deviate too much from the template-norm when doing a large update. I'll obtain and update the |status_system=3.1-type values until a change to the {{taxobox}} and {{speciesbox}} documentations are made. However, if a WP page uses |status_system=yyyy or |status_system=IUCNyyyy, I will update it with the year assessed instead.

The publication year is a reasonably accurate analog to the assessment date, but not perfect. I'll use "Date Assessed" from the web page instead (unless there's an AP[I] for that?).   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  17:20, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Tom.Reding: I've being doing some digging. There is a lot of confusion in the IUCN Red List article. According to the current IUCN FAQ section, version 3.1 is the latest version of the categories and criteria, which were drawn up in 2001. The 2017-2 style versions refer to the updates of the actual red lists (e.g. the IUCN Red List version 2017.2), which are made several times a year. Any assessment made after the early 2000s will be using the version 3.1 categories and criteria.   Jts1882 | talk  14:32, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The documentation for {{taxobox}} says that a |status_system=IUCN3.1-type value is required. {{Speciesbox}} gives no such direction, nor examples. And I see your point, that |status_system=3.1 is redundant if publication year >= 2001. That is part of the reason I got involved with the {{IUCN}} template-family, and this effort—I noticed many inconsistencies. I'm not a member of the project, nor do I have the expertise to direct large changes; but, I can help enact them.

To migrate from the |status_system=IUCN3.1-type system to a |<new parameter name?>=yyyy or yyyy.#-type system, at least 3 things have to happen (based on my understanding; possibly more).

1. All existing {{taxobox}}es and {{speciesbox}}es have to be verified that the assessment made is >= 2001.
2. The number of IUCN database entries with most-recent-assessments < 2001 must be determined, or at least agreed on to not be an issue (since their goal is to refresh assessments at most every 10 years; not sure if this is actually done in practice).
3. Then, there will be no need for a IUCN3.1-type parameter, the template documentations can be updated, and then transcluded pages be updated to the new (template) system.

So I suggest starting a discussion (if you so desire) at WT:TOL dedicated to this pursuit, and I will chime in and help in any way that I semiautomatically can :)   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  16:11, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've found 1 exception to this rule so far: Wicker ancylid, 19670, which uses ver2.3 with an assessment date in 2011.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  19:40, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was just passing by this article and noticed 2 African jackals sitting out by themselves unencumbered by any relationship to the Canidae#Phylogenetic relationships. There are some others as well. A good job for someone with the skill-set! William Harris • (talk) • 05:03, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@William Harris:. Are you using Firefox? A major problem with the cladograms is that they are made with HTML tables (with sides of cells making up the lines) and are at the mercy of how the browser renders the tables. Some browsers used to have an ugly tree where branched hang from the top, but most seemed to adopted the same convention. A problem recently appeared in Firefox where the bottom branch of a set of child nodes sometimes loses the vertical line. This doesn't happen in Chrome or Edge, so I assumed it is something to do with changes in Firefox. I'll have a look to see if the clade module has had any changes.   Jts1882 | talk  10:01, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am on Firefox. That would explain it, thanks! William Harris • (talk) • 10:10, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My assumption that it was a change in Firefox was lazy. It looks like an editor made a change to the clade module to make the HTML more compliant with HTML5 and that this introduced the problem. It is still a difference in how Firefox renders the HTML table but hopefully this can be fixed. The cladogram is fine if I use the my prototype of the clade module, but this uses a deprecated feature. I'll raise the issue and see if a solution can be find, rather than just reverting the change.   Jts1882 | talk  10:16, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would be the best approach; the editor was doing the right thing but it gave an erroneous result. William Harris • (talk) • 11:12, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have fixed the problem. It was a quirk of the way Firefox rendered collapsed borders in HTML tables. The edit that introduced the problem was a step forward even though it introduced a problem. I'd tried to get rid of deprecated style attributes but couldn't get it to work properly. Now we have got more compliant code. This is an advantage of the cooperative efforts on Wikipedia when different people look at the problems from different perspectives.   Jts1882 | talk  13:29, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I confirm that you have fixed it! Good work behind the scenes. William Harris • (talk) • 10:57, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Sigh... Peter coxhead (talk) 17:55, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

BigSugarDaddy 12:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for updating the link at Central African lion. I'm curious if you think "Odzala National Park" should be updated to "Odzala-Kokoua National Park" at Template:National Parks of the Republic of the Congo, since the Wikipedia article has been moved. I submitted a request on the talk page, but another editor seems to think the article needs further updating before the template should be changed. I'll be suggesting updates for the article soon, but wanted to get a discussion going about updating the template in the meantime. Thanks again, Inkian Jason (talk) 17:17, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for your help. I'm not asking you to review all of these, but if you're interested in related articles, you can see where my simple requests to have existing wiki links updated resulted in content removal. I have a conflict of interest, and I don't edit article directly, so I'll let other editors decide if links should be updated or content removed. Here are some examples: Talk:Shire River, Talk:Southern African cheetah, Talk:Southern African lion, Talk:Ulendo Airlink, Talk:West Lunga National Park. Again, no need to get involved, but I'm just pointing out similar requests. Take care, Inkian Jason (talk) 18:50, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to have received this notice:

Template:Clade has been nominated for merging with Template:Cladogram. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Chicbyaccident (talk) 22:59, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't quite understand what is proposed; I'm not sure if the proposer understands how the template works. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:12, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead: I don't understand the intent either. {{Cladogram}} is a template that uses the {{clade}} to create a one or more cladograms in a sidebox. They work together. While {{Cladogram}} is no longer absolutely necessary, as {{clade}} can be used to create something very similar using parameters caption and footer with their syling elements (see below), I don't see what would be gained as a sidebox or table container would still have to be created. {{Cladogram}} already does that.

Example with cladogram:

Example using clade:

One housekeeping change that could be considered is to implement the {{cladogram}} with a function in the clade module.   Jts1882 | talk  13:23, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure Vital articles is list for articles ]TODO(See here: [1] - nominationg of paper-and pencil game - this article just has been not added due to fact that article is not good, not is it already). I also nominated Cristiano Ronaldo to 14 vital players. It seems to me Cristiano Ronaldo and Ronaldo should be listed. Although Ronaldo's career was not stable such like Cristiano (due to injury and overweight) he is the youngest winner of Golden Ball and he had also much more success in national team than Cristiano had. Cheers. Dawid2009 (talk) 07:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to do this (and |vauthors= really does need to die), please do it all the way, with |last1=...|first1..., etc. Doing something like |last1=Doe, John X is actually invalid; its falisfying the citation metadata, saying someone's surname is "Doe, John X" and that they have no given name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello and thanks for producing the useful looking map module. I'm trying to fix wikilinks to disambiguation page Stamford Bridge. I think Chelsea's entry in Module:Football map/data for p.stadia should read something like

{ "Stamford Bridge (stadium)", 51.481667, -0.191111, "Stamford Bridge", "[[Chelsea F.C.]]", "File:Stamford Bridge Clear Skies.JPG" },

and for p.clubs

{ "Chelsea F.C.", "Stamford Bridge (stadium)", -1, -1 },

but when I try either or both changes and preview the demos, the stadium marker just disappears. Please can you make the appropriate fix? Thanks, Certes (talk) 12:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I finally realised that I'd have to change the demos too. When I edited demo3 and previewed the module again, the marker reappeared but the tooltip and the heading over the image read "Stamford Bridge (stadium)" which isn't ideal. I've reverted demo3 and will leave this one to the expert. Certes (talk) 12:54, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Certes: You are correct about the entry in Module:Football map/data. The problem was my fault. One, the demos didn't list the correct wikipedia page for Stamford Bridge and, two, even if they had, I hadn't implemented the alias in the code. Unfortunately, the London stadia were my chosen examples and the mistake carried through to three of the demos. I put the module together in a rush as a prototype and haven't revisited it, which I will try and do soon. I also need to write some documentation. The expected behaviour is as follows:

• The list must have the |stadiumN= set to the page name of the Wikipedia article (e.g. Stamford Bridge (stadium)).
• If the parameters are set in the template, these are used on the map.
• Otherwise, if the parameters are available in the Module:Football map/data list, these are used.
• If neither, then they are retrieved from Wikidata.

I have added the alias to the module and updated the demos. At least Stamford Bridge should appear now. Please let me know of any other errors and feel free to make suggestions (e.g. what other information should be included in the popup). Thank-you for taking the time to delve into the problem.   Jts1882 | talk  14:22, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that looks wonderful: well done! The only suggestion I'd make is to include the team name in the pop-up, if it's not too awkward for the few clubs that share grounds. Certes (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Certes: The stadia that get info from wikidata already show "home ground of Club Name (capacity 10,000)" as a footer. Check the the clubs outside London in demo3 or demo4. If the stadium is shared it will take the first entry (this can be improved upon).

The info in Module:Football map/data is more limited so either needs expanding or dropping in favour of Wikidata. I put this in first before adding the Wikidata options. I'm hesitant to drop it now as some people have an issue with using Wikidata in infoboxes. Perhaps there should be a clear option to use template parameters only, the module data only, or wikidata only, rather than the mixture now.   Jts1882 | talk  15:54, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I only checked Stamford Bridge, and its neighbours for comparison. The non-London popups look much more complete. We should certainly have One True Source rather than repeating it wherever the template is called. In theory a good place for that source is Wikidata, but I understand and share the concerns about relying on it, even in an infobox. Certes (talk) 16:04, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping up with the changes in spider taxonomy at present is a full time occupation! Peter coxhead (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jts1882. Since you put so much effort into designing the template subspeciesbox, I would appreciate your comment re this question: do you think it is justified to keep this template in wiki pages on populations that are no longer considered distinct subspecies? Like Visayan leopard cat, West African lion, Asiatic lion, Bengal tiger, Siberian tiger, South China tiger, Bali tiger and a few more on tiger populations. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@BhagyaMani:, I can't take any credit for the design of the subspeciesbox template, although I do my best to update them when I can.

I think the names of the taxobox templates cause some unanticipated problems. Here the fact that it is called subspeciesbox causes some people to think they should only be placed on valid subspecies. You see this argument more generally on paraphyletic taxa where the argument is that they shouldn't be used because they are not valid taxa (sic).

The taxobox templates are essentially infoboxes displaying information on the lifeform, which includes taxonomic information, conservation status, photos and range maps. I see no reason why articles on populations of animals shouldn't have an infobox. The West African lion is P. leo leo, which is a felid, etc, it has a range that can be shown in a map, and it has a conservation status determined by the IUCN. Why stop showing this information just because the taxonomic status has changed. I would like to add something to indicate that it is a recognised population, which we can document with sources, but the current taxobox options are for forma and variety, neither of which are used to describe the population in sources. Hopefully this will change.

The broader question is which populations should retain articles, which you know is causing some problems. I think all the examples you list are populations that are notable for Wikipedia purposes; they have been studied as distinct populations for a long time. If they are notable enough for an article, an infobox is a useful addition and the subspecies template is the most suitable way of adding one.   Jts1882 | talk  08:17, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your detailed comment! I do agree that the template is useful and makes sense as infobox. And also that the wiki pages on lion and tiger populations should be retained. When I asked you for comment, I had certainly not in mind to propose lumping them together under subspecific names. Frankly : in view of the huge amount of existing (and most likely future) publications about lions in both East and Southern Africa, I would much prefer to split Panthera leo melanochaita into 2 pages on populations, rather than keeping duplicates in pages titled 'African lion' and 'East-Southern African lion'. But that's a different issue, and imo requires broader consensus. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:49, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello, Jts1882. I'm planning on to do the template for the rankings for ice hockey I created, but I'm having problems with the sandbox template. I'm confused! AaronWikia (talk) 05:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Men's IIHF World Ranking^[1]

Rank	Change	Team	Points
1		Canada	3990
2	1	Sweden	3945
3	1	Russia	3930
4	2	United States	3765
5	1	Finland	3765

@AaronWikia: The code in your sandbox template is correct, but what is missing is the data for the module. The module has its own data pages, separate from the template data page. I've created a page for the mens rankings at Module:SportsRankings/data/IIHF World Ranking. The excel code to produce the data that has to be place in data.rankings = { .. } is in a comment in the file.

e.g. France: 14 1 (27 May 2024)^[2]

You can create a new data file (e.g. for the women's ice hockey rankings) by copying the code and editing the information on source, data, etc at the top of the data module. The alias list also needs to be edited for the country name used with the Olympic codes (e.g. United States or USA, DPR Korea or Korea DPR or North Korea, etc.).

I've modified your sandbox template to add the a list option, see {{IIHF World Ranking/sandbox2}}.   Jts1882 | talk  09:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but can you add a template for flag/link ("ih") for Module:SportsRankings? AaronWikia (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An oversight, I thought I had changed the links for other sports. I think it was hard-code and can be added to the data subpage. I'll look at this tomorrow.   Jts1882 | talk  20:37, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed for mens ice hockey. I'll make this part of the data page to allow additional sports teams to be added seemlessly.   Jts1882 | talk  20:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done The correct template for the flagged national team link is now retrieved from the data submodule.   Jts1882 | talk  08:53, 22 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I would be happy to talk to you. Would it be possible to talk to you via Facebook or at least via email, please? If not, no problem I respect your privacy. Thank you for your cooperation, --Snek01 (talk) 16:48, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Snek01: I'm generally wary of my privacy on the internet. I don't even do Facebook. I use the Jts1882 username widely and wish I'd used something else for Wikipedia, as then I would feel more comfortable being more open. So I would prefer to discuss this here or on the gastropod project page, although if you really think e-mail communication would help I will think about it.

I was reading about gastropod taxonomy a few months ago and noticed that Bouchet et al 2017 wasn't being used. When I checked the project for the recommended taxonomic source I became aware of the history of the gastropod project and the taxobox systems. The automatic taxobox system has developed a lot since 2011 when the project decided against using it in, iirc, 2011 (I don't think speciesbox existed then). I think that it can handle what is needed to implement Bouchet-2017/WoRMS and that the automatic system will make it easier. Once the taxonomy templates are set up the changes are easy, generally just needing the new template name and the taxon. For the gastropods (and other specious groups) I think showing extra taxa is useful, The subterclass is now fully implemented in automatic taxobox and can be shown with the |display_parents= parameter.

Anyway, let me know how I can help. Starting a discussion at the gastropod project might be the best approach.   Jts1882 | talk  17:36, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you biologist? Do you have a degree in biology? Are you good in editing templates? Why are you interested in gastropods? Are you just learning new things on Wikipedia or do you have any special interest in gastropods? Did you write or edit some gastropods articles already? Have you read User:Snek01/Guideline for WikiProject Gastropods? Are you interested in writing Did you know... articles? Those are few of many questions which could be useful for fruitful cooperation. They are usually better for normal discussion with questions followed by answers. And last but not least it would be better for me to understand you easier in chat. I have already planned a task for you, but I do not know if it will suits you. So? --Snek01 (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of questions in there. I'll start with a few of them.

Am I a biologist?. My degrees are in biochemistry and my academic research has mostly been in cellular signalling and membrane biophysics. On Wikipedia I steer clear of these areas and prefer general biology, especially the evolution and classification of biological organisms. The huge diversity of life and how it evolved has always fascinated me and is what drew me to biology in the first place, before I specialised.

Can I edit templates?. A substantial part of my contributions to Wikipedia have been in this area. My first large task was rewriting the {{clade}} template (for the phylogenitic trees) as a Lua module and I have made a number of developments to the system. I have also written some citation templates for (e.g. a series for catalog of fishes) and some sports related templates, including a mapping template for football stadia that gets data from Wikidata.

Am I interested in Gastropods? My interest is in general classification and phylogeny I tend to look at various parts of the tree of life at different times. This is what got me interested in the clade template system a lot of my edits are updating and modifying phylogenetic trees. A few months ago it was molluscs and gastropods. I do like looking at older classifications to see how our knowledge has evolved so was interested to see the historical classifications of gastropods as separate articles with comparisons. This is why I read a bit more and looked at the series of papers by Bouchet on gastropods and other molluscs.

Now I will stop for coffee.   Jts1882 | talk  09:00, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you play chess? That would be completely anonymous for you if we could discuss during the chess match. --Snek01 (talk) 00:31, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No more. I used to play a lot in school but have rarely played since. I lost interest when it got to the point I need to learn standard openings and counters to become a better player. I always did better in the more free form middle of the game rather than in the openings and end games.   Jts1882 | talk  09:00, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yes. I think, that it is necessary. Get me at https://www.chess.com/member/snek01 You can not lose the game under such circumstances. You can only win while you will get in effective way informations, opinions, experiences and suggestions that could possibly help to the Wikiproject and to the Wikipedia. --Snek01 (talk) 10:15, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, as I noted at Template talk:Virusbox, there are currently major changes needed to make Virusbox work properly. Thinking about it overnight, there seem to be two lines of attack:

1. Leave Virusbox as the template to use for all viruses, but alter it to drive {{Taxobox/core}} in the way that all the other automated taxobox templates do (i.e. using Module:Autotaxobox to traverse the taxonomic hierarchy). The main issue is adding support for italicizing all ranks below Virus group for viruses. However, Virusbox will be able to 'tell' Taxobox/core at the start that the taxon is a virus, which makes it easier.
2. Alter {{Automatic taxobox}} so that having determined that the taxon is a virus it then italicizes all ranks below Virus group (as you suggested elsewhere), keeping Virusbox for virus species, just as we have a separate Speciesbox for other species. I don't think it's sensible to try to alter Speciesbox to handle virus species, because the absence of binomials makes them so different.

On the whole, I favour (1) as the simplest to use. Also under (2), there would be few uses of Virusbox. I'm interested to know your thoughts. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead: I think the important step is using Module:Autotaxobox to traverse the taxonomy. Your point about Speciesbox is well taken, so keeping Virusbox for species makes sense. As the Wikipedia virus community is not generally using automatic taxoboxes at the moment I think using Virusbox for all viruses (option 1) should make it simpler and facilitate the transition.   Jts1882 | talk  16:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Talk moved to Module talk:SportsRankings#Updating data

Thanks for your additional examples. "Paeonia (Paeonia) daurica subsp. mlokosewitschii" is an interesting case. The logic at Module:TaxonItalics|italicizeTaxonName assumes that connecting terms occur in particular places in the string to be italicized. It could look for connecting terms anywhere, but it seemed safer to be restrictive. Also this ensures that only names in the correct format are handled; I didn't want to italicize "Paeonia subsp. mlokosewitschii" as "Paeonia subsp. mlokosewitschii" (it comes out as Paeonia subsp. mlokosewitschii, which is hopefully a hint that something is wrong). I guess that connecting terms used in botanical names could never be used as genus names or specific epithets, so maybe not being so restrictive would be safe. On the other hand, a botanical name with a subgenus and infraspecific epithet is pretty uncommon. Um... What do you think? Peter coxhead (talk) 17:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead:. As my edit says it was an improbable hypothetical example. Even if it existed I'm not sure that it would be wanted for the title and taxobox name, as its too long and the subgenus name is optional. I was just trying to think of awkward cases that might suggest more generally useful changes. For instance, not italicising a recognised connecting term if it is in the (second last position) AND (third position or later) might work. Overall, I think this just complicates matters unless there is a clear formula, but now is the time to try and think of wierd cases. You probably won't want to be revisiting this.   Jts1882 | talk  18:04, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's endlessly surprising to me how many weird cases actually exist on Wikipedia! A different issue, I know, but I would not have expected to find ~3,900 pages at Category:Speciesboxes with genus parameter without species parameter when it seems to me blindingly obvious that a taxobox for a species should contain a parameter for the species if there's one for the genus. A check I recently added to taxonomy template processing showed up half a dozen or so taxonomy templates with no parent, so the taxobox that used them stopped half-way up the classification hierarchy, without anyone apparently noticing for years.

Anyway, let's agree for now that this is a nice example that helps to define the limits of what is handled by Module:TaxonItalics. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:03, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Talk moved to Module talk:SportsRankings#Is the SportsRankings module it ready?

Talk moved to Module talk:Goalscorers#Module idea.

That was suppose to say Southern League is their first league trophy... Govvy (talk) 09:13, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy:. I wasn't sure how to change it as it is clear the first substantial trophy. I thought there were some minor local leagues and cups, but I think I was wrong. Several runners-up and a reserve team win, but the other wins were later. On checking A Romance of Football does say {tq|[f]or the first time in its history the Spurs first team won a trophy}} so perhaps my edit should be changed back and the reference added. My mistake.   Jts1882 | talk  09:43, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've been tidying up Module:Autotaxobox, and fixing the documentation, both at the module and at WP:Automated taxobox system/map. I think I've converted almost all the templates I want to convert to Lua now; those that are concerned with configuration I think are best left as they are, so editors don't need to change the module, and those that are mainly concerned with layout are easier to understand if left as template code.

I've also fixed {{Infraspeciesbox}} for the authority display. It should, in my view, never be needed, since displaying authorities above the target taxon is intended to be used only for the sole taxon in a monotypic taxon, and by definition, there aren't such taxa at an infraspecific rank. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've being following your changes to the autotaxobox module and templates. I think you've got rid of the more opaque template chains that make working out what was being done so difficult. It's far easier to follow now. The offset for the parent authorities simplifies things, although I hadn't realised they weren't used apart from in {{automatic taxobox}}. There seem to be a number of other parameters that are rarely or never used in the species and below level templates.   Jts1882 | talk  13:30, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The authorities would be needed in a Speciesbox for a monospecific genus needing disambiguation. I've forgotten to say that I haven't fixed the offset in |display-parents= yet. I'll have limited internet access for a few days. I think the next simplification is to study what parameters are actually used or needed in the automated taxoboxes and then simplify. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As per my comment above ("the next simplification is to study what parameters are actually used or needed in the automated taxoboxes"), I was thinking ahead to the next steps. Looking again at Module:Biota Infobox (which, by the way, should be called "Biota infobox", I think, to match the usual WP naming convention), there's a lot of complexity caused by the inconsistencies and peculiarities of the different taxobox templates. If these were tidied up, at least some templates could be merged: {{Automatic taxobox}} and {{Speciesbox}} should be able to get enough information from the taxon name to deal with the rank difference; {{Virusbox}} shouldn't need to be separate either.

So my feeling is that we should continue to work on tidying up the taxobox templates, and only afterwards replace {{Taxobox/core}} by Module:Biota Infobox, which would then be much cleaner and easier to maintain. What do you think? Peter coxhead (talk) 09:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have recently reorganised Module:Biota Infobox in my sandbox version, Module:Sandbox/Jts1882/Biota Infobox so it is more compliant with the current organisation of templates. I've separated out the parameter checking functions and core functions into submodules, which should be able to be used seperately. In principle it should be possible to use #invoke:Biota infobox/core|main}} instead of {{taxobox/core}} from the automatic taxobox templates or to use the template core from my functions that emulate the different automatic taxobox templates. I felt this would enable testing different parts better.

The parameter checking functions (Module:Sandbox/Jts1882/Biota Infobox/param) may be useful for the next step. They are now divided so that there are several steps:

• basic checking (get the parameters, alias any spaces to undescores, accept if it has a value (except for extinct which can be empty));
• alias checking against a list of aliases (e.g. color_as, colour_as);
• valid parameter checking against lists of parameters currently used by the individual automatic taxobox system templates (obtained using {{Parameters}}); a table of invalid parameters is also generated; and
• some additional function checking for setting tracking categories (e.g. are there manual taxobox taxon parameters set, are there both taxon and genus+species set?).
• (the check lists are in Module:Sandbox/Jts1882/Biota Infobox/data)).

It should be possible to invoke this parameter checking at the end of {{automatic taxobox}}, where you now set the tracking category for the binomials, and use it to help clean up the parameters in use and setting tracking categories more specifically. It would do this independently of the display of taxoboxes which would continue to use existing code.   Jts1882 | talk  10:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead:. See {{Automatic taxobox/sandbox3}}. This uses the parameter submodule to add tracking categories for unrecognised parameters (not in approved automatic taxobox list, e.g. |dummy=), manual taxobox parameters (e.g.|ordo=) or orphaned parameters (e.g. |image2_caption= without |image2=).   Jts1882 | talk  14:13, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would be useful now to invoke Biota Infobox/param in the live versions of {{Automatic taxobox}} and even more so in {{Speciesbox}}. Module:Sandbox/Jts1882/Biota Infobox/param would need to be moved to Module:Biota Infobox/param first, I think, since I've had negative comments when I linked to a sandbox version from a live one. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:37, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion on what parameter checking categories are useful would be a first step. Are the one's I've chosen suitable? (Incidentally, I hadn't realised they would be created automatically) I put in a few test categories based on various discussions I had seen, usually between you and User:Plantdrew, hence the orphaned parameter category and manual taxobox parameter categories. There is also a Category:Automatic taxobox with unsupported parameters which checks against the list of parameters supposed to be used by {{automatic taxobox}} according to {{Parameters}}. This includes a lot of parameters that are unused, unnecessary or unwanted (see params.validList.automatictaxobox {}) in Module:Sandbox/Jts1882/Biota_Infobox/data; e.g. the binomial3/4 and range_map3/4 parameters). This list and its sisters for speciesbox etc should be trimmed so these can be flagged. Then there are specific parameter combination test like the genus without species and vice versa in speciesbox (which could dealt with earlier). Subspeciesbox and infraspeciesbox could have similar checks.   Jts1882 | talk  17:43, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the categories were created by BrownHairedGirl, not automatically.

My inclination would be to use only a small number of categories in the first instance, in particular just one each for unsupported and orphaned. Then we can see whether it's worth making finer distinctions (although we've seen before how much clean-up there is when error-tracking is turned on). Later we can look deeper. However, it would be good to have some input from Plantdrew, because he looks at articles' taxoboxes more than anyone, afaik. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:20, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead: Thanks for the ping. I created the tracking categories to remove them from the cleanup list at Special:WantedCategories. Per WP:REDNOT, a page in a red-linked category is an error, and some template here was doing that. I have no view on which tracking categories are appropriate ... but if a template starts populating them, then either the a) categories should be created or b) the template changed.

If any these tracking cats are no longer wanted, just alter the templates as required and tag the redundant tracking cats with {{db-empty}}. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:52, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm seeing looks like a good step in the right direction; categories in the parameter check module are suitable. Agree with Peter to use a smaller number of categories covering multiple parameter issues in each category. Unsupported parameters already show up in the monthly template data error report, and I've been dealing with them, so there should be hardly in automatic taxoboxes (there are still unsupported parameters in manual taxoboxes since my preference at this point is to fix them in the process of converting to automatic taxoboxes). Well, actually there are unsupported parameters in automatic taxoboxes, they just have no value specified (there's something like 2,000 instances of |image_size= in Speciesboxes); not sure if valueless parameters would get caught in your checks. The check for orphaned parameters should include those dependent on |status=/|status2=: e.g., |status_system=, |status_ref= (and maybe also |type_species_authority=/|type_genus_authority=?).

Additional orphaned parameters noted. I'll move the list to the data module so it can be updated away from the code. I'll add them then.

Valueless parameters are checked for, but just ignored (except for |extinct=). I can add a category for this or include it in a general one.

Is it worth retaining aliases with spaces instead of underscores (or UK vs. US spellings of color/colour)? They're entirely unused in automatic taxoboxes, and hardly used in manual taxoboxes (OK, there is one editor who is currently adding range maps to bird articles using |range map=, and every month a few spaced parameters show up in automatic taxoboxes that were just converted from manual).

This is just one line of code with little overhead so keeps things compatible with manual taxobox. But the check can be excluded from autotaxobox checks.

I can go through the parameter lists in more detail, but will comment on a couple now. |trend= doesn't do anything and is only used in a handful of manual taxoboxes; eliminate it. |image_caption_align= isn't used anywhere; eliminate. It wouldn't take me long at all to switch all instance of |variety= over to |varietas=, so I don't think an alias needs to be maintained. |image_width= could soon be eliminated from the automatic family; it's only present in Speciesboxes with no value, and I've made some progress over the last week removing it from Automatic taxoboxes (I could easily get rid of it entirely in a month). Plantdrew (talk) 19:24, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Those lists can be trimmed drastically. The spaces versions aren't need whether they are kept as aliases or not. I'm not sure how they are compiled (I used {{Parameters}} to generate the list), but I wanted to start with the most inclusive list. There was at least one omission, so that's something else to check.

@Plantdrew and Peter coxhead: I've put a some comments on Plantdrew's suggestions above.

I've moved the module to Module:Biota infobox to follow naming conventiosn. I'm glad I had the template delays and use of null edits explained. I'll put the parameter subpage there when I've made the changes for the suggestions above.   Jts1882 | talk  10:48, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I've now entirely eliminated instances of |image_width= from Automatic Taxoboxes; it is still present in some Speciesboxes with no value specified. While I'm sure it will show up some in the future as taxoboxes are converted from manual to auto, I don't think it's something that auto taxoboxes need to support going forward. Plantdrew (talk) 19:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Plantdrew: well, a good first step would be to remove all occurrences of image_width from {{Taxobox/core}} which all the taxoboxes currently use. Then even if it's still present in a call to {{Speciesbox}}, it will have no effect. Unless there's something you can see that I've missed, I'll do this. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:02, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead:, I removed it from auto taxoboxes, the parameter is still being used in ~10% of manual taxoboxes, and is presumably doing something useful in at least a few cases. So I guess it should stay in Taxobox/core. If there's no easy way to disable it solely in automatic taxoboxes, it's not a big deal. Plantdrew (talk) 20:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Plantdrew: ok. It should really be removed from those manual taxoboxes, but that's a big task. My plan (endorsed by Jts1882) is to convert the automated taxobox templates to Lua, step by step. I've done one of the less-used ones, {{Virusbox}} (which showed me, if I didn't already know it, how much easier it makes it to deal with issues like automatic italicization). {{Virusbox}} ignores the image width parameters, and when the others are converted, they will do the same. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:19, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead:. There are almost 23,000 uses of |image_width= with {{Taxobox}} and only 205 uses of |image_upright=. The most common settings are 200px (4163, the default taxobox width), 240px (5618), 250px (5394), and 300px (2039). None use higher than 300px and only around 900 less than 200px. The 638 at 100px might be useful if used for low resolution images. The others make the images slightly larger, but this probably isn't critical for the images in most cases (it might matter if there are collages using image maps). In many cases it might just been a means of making the taxobox wider for better display of taxa with long names and/or authorities (e.g. in the subdivision section).

As Plantdrew has removed |image_width= and |image2_width= from the automatic taxoboxes, it might be time to stop passing the parameters to the core. That should discourage their use.   Jts1882 | talk  10:08, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jts1882: I'm working on converting {{Automatic taxobox}} to Lua at present. As ever, this throws up various oddities in the coding and use of the template, which are slowing me down. Assuming I get a functioning Lua version, it won't pass on the "image_width" parameters. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:07, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Separately from this, I've made a list of all the taxobox-related templates I'm aware of at User:Peter coxhead/Work/Taxobox templates. I've been caught out too many times by discovering that what seemed a sensible change to a taxobox-related template messed up one I wasn't aware of. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A template I would really like to get rid of is {{Taxobox norank entry}}. I've removed all uses of it for now, but there are some editors who seem to like it. (If you haven't come across it, it allows unranked taxa to be inserted anywhere in a manual taxobox by tacking a new row onto the end of the name of the taxon in the previous row. It completely screws up e.g. the possibility of automatically italicizing taxon names in such a manual taxobox.) Switching to Lua where the order of parameters is passed on means that we could get rid of all the "unranked_RANK" parameters, which this template is designed to avoid. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:54, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean it is possible to add subterclass by subterfuge?   Jts1882 | talk  10:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've only just realized that you don't have template editor status. You can ask yourself at Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Template editor or I'll do it for you. With the work you've done on Module:Clade for example, it should be obvious that you understand what you are doing. (And, selfishly, I don't want to be the only editor responsible for maintaining the automated taxobox system, which I almost seem to be at present.) Peter coxhead (talk) 18:27, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead: I had noted that I have the strange status where I can edit the clade module but not the template that calls it. It hasn't been a major problem as I run any major changes past you anyway, but does mean more for you to do. I think it would be helpful to get template editor rights. Then I can help you with the taxooxes and it would also be useful on some football-related templates where I help out sometimes. I don't know if administrator requests are a good guide, but they seem to consider self requests negatively so it might be better for you to make the request.

Ok, will do (later). Peter coxhead (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That reminds me that I have made some further changes to the clade module so it uses CSS more. The default border is now handled in CSS (which greatly reduced the size of large phylogenies). Can you have a look at the examples in User:Jts1882/sandbox/test/cladex (they all use cladeN despite the page name) on an Apple device to see if they appear in the normal iOS way. It's standard CSS so shouldn't be an issue, but this is one thing I can't check.

The CSS version also allows a reverse clade option to be integrated seemlessly. I think this would be useful sometimes for showing alternative phlogenies (e.g. in User:Jts1882/sandbox/test/cladeR.   Jts1882 | talk  10:22, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All cladograms look dreadful to me on Safari-type browsers, but other than this browser difference, all look ok under Firefox, Opera and Safari on a MacBook and under Safari in both desktop and mobile views on an iPad. The mobile view never works well with wide images or diagrams, but that's an inherent problem. I assume that it's intentional that in the last cladogram (root Tetrapodomorpha) the first purple shading is full width (i.e. as wide as "grouplabel1") unlike all the shadings underneath. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's a shame that Safari still handles html tables differently. But if the appearance is the same as the current {{clade}} version, I can update the release version. I can't edit the {{clade/styles.css}} but I can put it in styles2.css and make the change using that now the styles template is set in the module. I can then formally ask you to copy it to styles.css using a template edit request (see Tom Redings's advice on template editor rights below).

The full width purple shading was not intentional, just inevitable the way the html tables are handled. I was just trying various ideas for labels and bars on the right. Grouplabel works with bar/barbegin/barend, but its tricky and not ideal. It actually works nicely with reverse clade to add an alternative topology.   Jts1882 | talk  17:11, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) FYI ~ the TE request process assumes you are making a self-request, and requesting someone else would look a bit odd, possibly raising more questions than it's worth. It would be better for those supporting your TE would chime in below it. If you meet all the standard guidelines, that shouldn't be necessary anyway. As far as guideline #6 goes, you might be able to point to communications with Peter to count towards that. Just to be safe, I would formalize your next few requests (if you're lacking).   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  15:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page stalking is good. I've learnt a lot watching various talk pages, yours included.

Thanks for that advice. I don't quite pass #5 and #6 as I normally don't make the edit request formally and just participate in the discussions. But I can work on that. You'd think hundreds of edits on the sandbox of the module running a protected template would count for something.   Jts1882 | talk  17:11, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, when I've made a significant number of edits for an editor in the past, I have requested the right for them and been successful. Actually, I now remember that it was page moves and page mover rights. Anyway, regardless of the formal criteria, I would strongly back your application. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:30, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To use the current virus taxonomy, Torque teno sus virus needs a taxobox starting:

{{Paraphyletic group | color_as = Virus | image =  | image_alt =  | image_caption =  | unranked_domain = [[Virus]] | phylum = [[incertae sedis]] | classis = [[incertae sedis]] | ordo = [[incertae sedis]] | familia = ''[[Anelloviridae]]'' 

However, {{Paraphyletic group}}/Module:Biota infobox doesn't seem to pass on |color_as=, and without it, there's nothing to set the taxobox colour because "Virus group" isn't used now according to the consensus at WikiProject Viruses. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:56, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For some obscure reason I only handled colour_as for automatic taxonomy cases. I've now added handling for |color_as= but not the other aliases. I need to update the module to the sandbox version with all the parameter checking and aliasing, which will simplify the coding. The color options for manual taxobox emulation is incomplete so I need to have another look at that.

Alternatively, just add |auto= (leave it blank) and it will use the automatic taxonomy system.   Jts1882 | talk  16:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks, Torque teno sus virus now has a functioning up-to-date taxobox. (Remember that traditionally in taxoboxes a blank value for a parameter means no/false, so |auto=yes would be better.) Peter coxhead (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since you have participated in the discussion of revising the primary source for primate taxonomy, I wanted to let you know that a new source has been suggested, the mammal diversity database. Right now I think the 2 main contenders are this and ITIS. Please share any thoughts you have on the discussion on the Primate Project Talk Page. Rlendog (talk) 01:19, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for three things: first, assuming that my edits are good faith; second, your detailed explanation of why you reverted two of my edits; and third, your civility. Regards, IiKkEe (talk) 14:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@IiKkEe: Equally, thanks for taking my changes with good grace. We are all (with a few exceptions) trying to improve the articles and too often people get proprietary over parts of the articles they have written. We have to remember that people come to the articles with different mixes of enthusiasm, expertise and writting skills. We should all expect our edits to be changed and help ensure that the changes are for the better. Clear and detailed edit summaries help. Silly edit wars like a recent one at Dingo are a waste of time.   Jts1882 | talk  15:03, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Couldn't agree more! I recently had 32 edits reverted with 1 click. The reason given: "not an improvement" (!). IiKkEe (talk) 15:13, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

the one on the left is gracile. What do I win if I'm right? I've been meaning to say hello. Still trying to guess at the letters and numbers in your tag, but haven't yet confounded you another user. I agree, btw, about recognising the value in things like Adl et al, in that they are immediately usable as secondary references to earlier proposals. I'm finding this beautifully demonstrated in a poorly understood group that I am working on, and the way in which workers built on the earlier literature to formulate a slightly clearer understanding over the course of investigations. Blah, blah, anyway, hello! cygnis insignis 15:42, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

According to the caption at Pan the bonobo is on the right.

Guessing meaning of the letters and numbers in my user name might take some time. They aren't my initials or birth date. The first internet forums I participated in were football ones and the name can be traced back to that. The name I used was based on the name of the then manager of the football club I support, but as managers kept getting fired, changing the name and keeping some continuity became impossible. I decided to take the initials of the original name and add the foundation date of the football club and have used that name widely on the internet since then. I wish I had chosen something else for Wikipedia, but it is too late now.

I have long considered the strict distinction between primary and secondary references at Wikipedia to be problematic especially for scientific papers and even moreso for taxonomy papers. Some of the best reviews of the taxonomic literature can be found in introductions to new proposals. I enjoy reading the historical accounts and how the classification schemes have changed over time.   Jts1882 | talk  16:16, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, then I hope I was wrong in my guess. I'll get back to reading through what Peter has presented. Regards, cygnis insignis 16:48, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the distinction in WP:PSTS is wrong for many if not most scientific topics, at least as it is customarily interpreted. It's not the medium (e.g. journal paper) that determines what is primary or secondary, but the content. A good example is monographs published as long journal articles. These often contain by far the most authoritative review of the taxonomic literature. Many editors have been saying all this for a long time, but it seems to have no impact. Sigh... Peter coxhead (talk) 17:43, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(Also @Plantdrew:) So far no actual responses to the choice I posed at Wikipedia talk:Automated taxobox system#Alternatives. It was clear to me from the discussion at WT:TOL that people didn't understand the issue, so I hoped that by giving diagrams and a long text explanation it would be clear, but it seems not. Sigh... (I seem completely unable to communicate what I mean to one editor.)

So I'll respond to your question here. I don't think that skip templates ever work properly to deal with inconsistent ranks or classifications. As far as I know, they were introduced to reduce the depth of the taxonomic hierarchy when processing was coded in the template language, and all kinds of tricks were needed to cope with the depth used for some groups, particularly dinosaurs. (I believe that Smith609, the originator of the system, envisaged the system as mainly using Linnaean ranks, not multitudes of clades.) Once they existed, skip templates were pressed into service to jump over inconsistent ranks. It's hard to know where to put the skip, because unlike my nicely limited examples in the figures I drew, the real hierarchies are deep and branched.

I don't think skip templates should be needed at all now. If no-one makes any useful comments, I will implement my version (4), I think, and then all the skips in the bird/mammal/dinosaur hierarchy can be removed. The remaining issues will be:

• Will there have to be variant systems in this set of classifications, as per the "/Plantae" one I hastily implemented yesterday? (It needs some tidying.)
• Is there a need for something less crude than the all-or-nothing of |always_display=? If so, how would it work; how could some clades be displayed for some target taxa and not for others? (Other than by using variant taxonomy templates.)

Peter coxhead (talk) 20:41, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't really help yesterday. I pointed out the specific issue you were concerned about, but then went on to make a tangential comment, which was more thinking aloud than offering solutions. I will try and address your specific questions on inconsitent ranks later today.

I liked the "plantae" variant path example. I was a bit surprised I hadn't seen that before, so it's reassuring to know that you added it yesterday. I hadn't realised such variants path could be set up like that. One concern is that if there were lots of variant paths the system would get more difficult to follow. I wonder if there is a way of keeping one heirarchical ladder in the taxonomy templates and marking the paths within the ladder. Perhaps a |path=plantae to indicate that a rank should be shown under certain conditions. How this would be initiated and handle skips needs some thought.

Yes, I've been thinking both about dealing better with inconsistent ranks and with variant systems. One idea I had for the latter is, I think, somewhat similar to yours above. When the Lua code in Module:Autotaxobox sees a template with a qualified taxonomy template, like "/Plantae", it sets the variable mode. From then on upwards, every time the system looks for a parent, it first looks for "Template:Taxonomy/parent/mode". If this exists, it follows it, if not it follows "Template:Taxonomy/parent". One advantage of this approach is that it would allow a move away from the 'plain' hierarchy, a return to it, and then another move away. This isn't possible with the system at present: once it rejoins the 'plain' path, it is stuck there.

However, there could be problem. Checking for the existence of a page is an expensive operation and only so many are allowed each time a page is expanded. Although the limit of 500 seems generous (and one of the deepest hierarchies, the one used at Felis, only gives 7/500), I'm concerned that potentially adding 100 extra 'exists' checks would not be viewed as desirable. Earlier, as far as I can make out (I wasn't around then), there was something of an 'arms race' between the developers of the template language-based automated taxobox system and those in charge of the WikiMedia software: the former kept pushing up the required expansion depth; the latter reduced it; the former came up with ingenious ways of just keeping within the limits; ... Ultimately the latter won, and only skip templates, with all their problems, kept the system working. I wouldn't like to start this process again with expensive parser calls. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead:. The template language #ifexist is expensive, but in Lua you can use frame:expandTemplate() and check the result. The Lua reference manual doesn't say this is expensive and it generally warns about expensive functions (e.g. mw.title.new()).   Jts1882 | talk  18:07, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's what Module:Autotaxobox does. However, there are two ways of doing it: a direct use of frame:expandTemplate(), and pcall(frame.expandTemplate, ...). pcall() prevents an error termination and returns a value to show whether an error has occurred, making it easier to tell whether a template exists. I had the impression from somewhere that pcall(frame.expandTemplate, ...) was expensive, but I must have mis-remembered, because it's not in the manual and when I look at the page source for Module talk:Autotaxobox/testcases, the expensive parser function count is 1/500. So this means that the idea of selecting a path based on some kind of mode or path variable is a possible approach. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:48, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A bit of flexibility in |always_display= would be useful. The suggestion I made yesterday was effectively for a |always_display=sometimes depending on the number of taxa already displayed below the taxon in question. For instance superclass Tetrapod could be displayed if 3 or less taxa were displayed. Thus it would display for bird (class Aves, clade Ornithurae; 2 taxa displayed) or Neoaves (clade Neoaves, infraclass Neognathae, class Aves; N=3) but not for lower bird taxa. The problem is determining rules that apply generally and not just with bird, which is one reason I asked for more examples of skip templates in action. I'll give some more thought to this and the path idea and see if I can come up with something more coherent.   Jts1882 | talk  07:54, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This could certainly be made to work: just count up the number of taxa displayed as you work upwards creating the automated taxobox, and then apply the rule. I'd be very reluctant to allow the critical number to be changed in a taxonomy template, because I think this would make the system very unpredictable. So, yes, if we could agree on a number, it would work. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What would be really helpful would be to be able to automatically generate some kind of tree diagram from taxonomy templates, then we could see better where inconsistencies might arise and need fixing. It's tricky because there aren't any downward links in taxonomy templates. There's also the question of how to 'draw' the trees, but as you successfully converted {{clade}} to Lua, you're the most likely editor I can think of to understand how to do it! Peter coxhead (talk) 21:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is something I've thought would be desirable. There is the whole system keeping hierarchical taxonomies but we can only get a ladder going upwards. Something might be possible with the API or a script, searching for templates with |parent=TAXON to get the children of a taxon, but I don't think this can be done within Lua.

@Tom.Reding: Any thoughts on what tools could be used to gather this information?   Jts1882 | talk  09:03, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I looked through the Lua reference manual, but couldn't find anything to quickly produce a 'what links here' list, so making a downward tree on-the-fly via a template/module I don't think is doable without a |children=-like parameter. AWB can use the WP API to find all links to the page and populate (hard-code) a |children= parameter. This would make another maintenance step for updating taxonomy changes, of course, and would lose accuracy over time. The upside is that discrepancies would be easier to see in a nice tree plot.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  14:58, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would have to be a continously running bot, as per the old one, constantly checking taxonomy templates. Whether this would now get approval, given that it's only for the convenience of editors, is another matter. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:12, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Tom.Reding:. Can AWB or the API search for templates containing |parent=VALUE? This could be a way of traversing the taxonomy. I can see how to use the API to get all templates calling a particular taxonomy template, which is useful for lower taxa (e.g. for Felinae, but you soon get huge numbers higher up the tree. It would be nice to further refine the search somehow, but I assume the API can't do this as it would involve loading the page text. Thoughts?   Jts1882 | talk  17:19, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Both AWB & the API can, I think, with a clever-enough wikisearch string. While the # of raw pages that link to higher taxa templates is larger, the # of Template:Taxonomy/... pages would never be very large. I think you can constrain namespace in a wikisearch string, but I don't use it often enough to remember atm.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  18:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One other thought is using categories. If every taxonomy template belonged to a category Taxonomy templates with parent PARENT it might be possible to come up with a way of traversing the taxonomy templates downwards. The overhead of a parallel category system for the taxonomy templates would be substantial.   Jts1882 | talk  07:54, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that the editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories wouldn't be very happy with categories used in this way, and as you say, there would be an awful lot. Smith609 used to have a bot that ran adding |children= to taxonomy templates with the idea that the subdivisions in automated taxoboxes would be displayed automatically. This worked ok when the encoded classifications were all Linnaean, as I believe he envisaged and was the case initially, but gave silly results once there were skips and variants (there were even loops, which caused real difficulties), so the bot was stopped, most taxonomy templates lacked this parameter, those that were there were removed, and I did not implement any of the code that processed the bot's actions when I converted to Lua. This might be a way forward though, solely to use in display. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Step One The children of a taxon in the taxonomy template system can be found with the search facility, e.g. find taxonomy templates with Felidae as parent. This search checks for |parent=Felidae using the search insource:"parent[ ]+=[ ]+Felidae" in the template namespace.

The same search can be made using the API: API search for children of Felidae.

As the next step I'm going to use the API call to make an external script to generate a tree of children from the template system. I'm wondering if a custom JS script can be used to make a tool that can be used within the wikipedia editor.   Jts1882 | talk  07:37, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Step 2. I have a working php program which can traverse the taxonomy downwards from a parent. It does seem to work properly, showing all the expected taxa, although I can't be certain the regex script isn't missing some taxa out.   Jts1882 | talk  12:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Step 3. Create a Javascript version and use it as a custom user script. This has the advantage that it is much faster at accessing the API as it is part of Wikipedia. To install add the following to your user common.js file.

importScript('User:Jts1882/taxonomybrowser.js');

The first implementation adds two tools to the side bar.

• Taxonomy list. This prompts for a taxon and then shows the children taxonomy templates down three levels (the level is fixed for now).
• Taxonomy browser. Prompts for a taxon and shows the children taxonomy templates with a button to expand further. This allows the tree to be browsed interactively and can go deep in the hierarchy one level at a time.

The tools are inflexible but this is just to demonstrate functionality. Making it "aware" of the page and automatically starting with the Taxonomy template being viewed is the most obvious addition.   Jts1882 | talk  13:57, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead, Plantdrew, NessieVL, and Tom.Reding:. Any thought on the above?   Jts1882 | talk  14:00, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Very cool! This will be able to work on any valid Template:Taxonomy/... template eventually? Perhaps it can default to the current taxonomy template the script is called from, in the future? (gravy)   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  14:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I put this in my common.js, since I don't have a custom.js, and it seemed to work fine. I'm not sure what difference would be.   ~ Tom.Reding (talk ⋅dgaf)  14:24, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, I meant common.js. It should work from any taxonomy template. Just enter the name in the prompt box. So far its working where I have tested, but as we all know there will always be exceptions. There isn't much error checking at the moment. The "/" in the skip/variant templates caused problems as I use the name for the ID for inserting the tree interactively. I suspect "?" will also cause a problem too.

I'm struggling to find how to get the page name (usually straightforward in wikimedia software) as using that from taxonomy templates would be the most logical default. I'll also look and see if some interactive options can be added to the dialogue so the list can go more than three levels down. This was incredibly slow with a remote php program but using the API with JS from wikipedia is fast.   Jts1882 | talk  14:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing anything. I've added the script and refreshed my cache. It should be showing up in the Tools section of the sidebar that starts with "What links here"? Do I need to be a particular type of page (e.g. a taxonomy template) for it to display? Plantdrew (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Plantdrew: It should be showing two items at the bottom of the tools section. I note you have other things in there, so perhaps there is a conflict. Can you try just loading the taxonomybrowser script to see if it loads alone.   Jts1882 | talk  17:29, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I moved your script to the top, and got it to work. It looks wonderful. A couple comments. Can it display an error message when a there isn't a taxonomy template for the term entered? In the browser, would it be possible to not to show the + when you reach a template that has no children? Plantdrew (talk) 17:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add some error checking later so it catches bad taxon names and when no children. The + button is added before searching for the child taxa, so while it would be possible not to show the button it would mean running the search for the child taxa and not displaying them which adds overhead and complexity.

I've added a check for taxonomy templates so it will default to the taxonomy template of the current page (perhaps it should only run from taxonomy template pages). In my test version it also uses a single word page title in the main namespace as the default taxon in the prompt, so it picks up Felidae or Gunnerales but the widespread use of common names undermines this.   Jts1882 | talk  17:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As you may have seen from my post at Wikipedia talk:Automated taxobox system#Arbitrary break, I thought it would be a good idea to make clear which taxa will be shown in automated taxoboxes based on |always_display= and being of a principal rank, so their ranks are now emboldened, as per Template:Taxonomy/Pteranodon for example. While testing this change, I've been surprised at how many minor ranks seem to have |always_display=yes.

If variant paths are to be used more, then I think that the right-hand table should also show this. One possibility is for the middle column in the table to use the taxonomy template name, linking only to the link text, e.g. at Template:Taxonomy/Spermatophyta/Plantae, the lowest row would have "Spermatophytes/Plantae" or perhaps "Spermatophytes /Plantae" or possibly put the "variant path" in a separate column. Thoughts? Peter coxhead (talk) 11:13, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The bolding of the displayed ranks is very useful. I also think showing the /variant or /skip in the middle column would make following how taxonomy was set up easier. Displaying this information would also make it more obvious to other editors that these options are available. --  Jts1882 | talk  11:43, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. See the sandbox version at Module talk:Autotaxobox/testcases#taxonomyList. I'm not sure that both the "Taxonomy" and "edit" links are needed (I have just been copying what was there); it's very little trouble to use just the "Taxonomy" link and then a normal edit. It would save some width, which is valuable on the narrower screens of the portable devices that most people seem to use now. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:21, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, showing /plantae on the relevant rows makes the taxonomy clearer. I wouldn't put it in the column with "taxonomy, edit" as that widens the table substantially. I think your first suggestion for "Spermatophytes/Plantae" would be better.

You could give the columns headers (e.g. Taxonomy template) and then just have view and edit below.   Jts1882 | talk  15:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the taxonomy table there is pretty much exactly what I was asking for when I brought up the 4 embryophyte templates on Peter's talk page. Plantdrew (talk) 19:49, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I tried it with my suggestion of putting the "/variant" right after the link, but I didn't like it. It's wasn't much less wide, since the width is effectively determined by the longest taxon name + the variant name in both cases, but because the taxon names are of very variable lengths, the "/variant" was all over the place, not lining up, so it was more difficult to see a "run" of variant taxa. It's very difficult to show the sandbox version working when looking at a taxonomy template because of the way the "Don't edit this line" templates work, so I'll need to make it live to see what it looks like combined with the left-hand table you get on taxonomy template pages. Since you both think it's useful, I'll go ahead.

I did, and it was awful; the right-hand table expanded to fill most of the page (I think it's because of the explanatory text I put in the table at the bottom). More work needed! Peter coxhead (talk) 20:12, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Did some playing in sandbox version and preferred the following four column version at line 283-4:

	res = res .. ':||<span style="white-space:nowrap;">' .. link .. '</span>'  	.. '||<span style="font-size:smaller;">' .. qualifier  .. '</span>'  	.. '||<span style="white-space:nowrap;">'  .. frame:expandTemplate{ title = 'Template:Edit a taxon/sandbox', args = { taxon } } .. '</span>\n|-' 

The columns helped the wrapping as the nowrap only works on white space and not the gap between "qualifier" and the {{Edit a taxon}} template. The smaller text gave an extra emphasis to the variants (italics looked bad) and the modified template showing view/edit reduced table width. This is presumably independent of your issue with te rest of the page.   Jts1882 | talk  12:00, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it definitely looks better at User:Peter coxhead/Work page#Temp. The problem with the earlier 4-col version was that when it was placed on an actual taxonomy template page, opposite the taxonomy key in the left-hand table, its width expanded, although it didn't on the testcases page, where it was inside a table cell. When I'm not restricted to an iPad, I'll try your version live.

(If you look at the history of the sandbox version of the module, you'll see that I made hard work of moving the table start and end out of the calling template into the function – done to move the explanatory text under the table. I think I would be better at constructing tables in Lua using real HTML, not wikitext, which is too sensitive to newlines.) Peter coxhead (talk) 16:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the new lines and wikitext table code is very hard to work with and probably responsible for most of the more perplexing bugs (it was a huge struggle getting the clade module to work, especially as I was unfamiliar with wikitext). The Lua HTML libary is nice to use as it has good error handling. The problem with using this with taxobox templates is the tendancy to start a row in the main taxobox templates and then any row content added by subsidiary taxonomy templates ends with a new row "|-". You can see this in your row function for the taxonomy template listing, but it applies to all the templates that place the lines in scientific classification and conservation sections of the taxoboxes. This kills off using the node based HTML library. It would be better if the new rows were started in the subsidiary templates so they each handle a row as a node.   Jts1882 | talk  17:07, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's reassuring to know that you had problems too! Yes, as a minimum keeping tables and rows together as units in Lua is good advice, which I had just about worked out for myself. The initial issue was that I replicated in Lua the broad logic of the template-based system, which did not keep the wikitext code for a table or a row in one template – for example, tables were started in one template and ended in another – and then debugged it by trial-and-error rather than systematic analysis. I will switch to the node-based library in new Lua code (I used to teach manipulating the document object model in Javascript, so I should have thought of this before). Peter coxhead (talk) 20:34, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Well, it was a bit of a struggle to get the information message to keep with the right-hand table and not overlap wide left-hand tables, such as the one at Template:Taxonomy/Angiosperms (I would have preferred it at the bottom of the right-hand table, but if placed in the table it was difficult to keep it narrow, and when placed outside the table and floated right, because it was laid out before the left-hand table, they sometimes interfered with one another). Anyway, the right-hand table uses the layout you suggested, which is very good, in my view. (I also tidied the Lua code as per your suggestion above so that the "|-" always comes at the start of an output table row.) Thanks for the help. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I realized some time ago that there's an issue when the name of the taxonomy template and the link text don't "match" – in particular it messes up italicization. It was deeply embedded in the design of the automated taxobox system from the start that the taxon name used was obtained from the template name. I think that |link= may have originally been intended to be used only to provide a different link target.

I wanted to see how many such cases existed and what kind they were, so I set up Category:Taxonomy templates with different name and link text, initially with very weak rules as to what constituted "different". They are much stronger now, so most of the templates in the category will disappear with time (or a null edit). If you look at my recent contributions, you'll see that I've got bogged down fixing the surprising number of taxonomy templates where the link text is wrong. (The reason why I haven't responded to your great work on displaying the taxonomic hierarchy in taxonomy templates.) There are several main issues:

1. Typos: the link text and the template name are spelt differently suggesting a typo rather than a deliberate choice.
2. Taxonomic changes: editors have dealt with a change in name by just changing the link text, leaving the template at the old name. This messes up italicization, among other issues.
3. Extinction handled by putting |link=TAXON|†TAXON with |extinct= left blank. This messes up tracking consistency of extinction status.
4. Setting |link= just to the disambiguated name, which then shows up in the taxobox, e.g. as "GENUS (plant)".
5. Link parameter omitted; the default is then to use the template name, but this will be wrong if it is disambiguated, which again causes the disambiguation to show up in the taxobox.

All of these except (3) can cause the taxobox to be wrong, but editors don't seem to have noticed this. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:27, 18 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Did you see : someone prepared a DUPLICATE of the Felidae page at List of felines with almost identical text. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 12:29, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I had noticed. The table in the list article is new and potentially a good addition, but there are a couple of issues. As you say the lede is essentially a compilation of unattributed copies from the Felidae page. The second issue is use of feline in the broader sense for all (or all extant) felids. I think these list articles have some value (e.g. see List of fruit bats) so I think it is reasonable to use as a {{see also}} hatnote for extant felids in the main article, but with a pipe so the hatnote says felids (there might already be a suitable redirect).   Jts1882 | talk  13:00, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for missing the attribution; I've added a null edit to note such. As to the use of "felines" to refer to the whole family: I asked before publishing at WP:ANIMALS but got no response, and no one corrected me on the WP:DISCORD wp biology channel either. I went with felines as it sounded better to my ear and Felidae states that either feline or felid is acceptable- is "felid" more correct? Or is it just that most families don't get an "-ine" suffix for groups? I'm new to editing in the taxonomy area, so I apologize for any errors. --PresN 04:08, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A feline is a member of the Felinae, hence not a pantherine, whereas felid includes both Felinae and Pantherine cats. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 04:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PresN and BhagyaMani: Felid is a more precise term as it unambiguously refers to the whole family. Feline is ambiguous as it is used both more generally as a synonym of felid and also more narrowly for the Felinae. In common English the broader term is probably what most people understand. In scientific writing the Felinae are usually treated as a subfamily, distinct from pantherines, especially by people who work on extant cats, but some working on extinct animals use Felinae for conical-toothed cats (to exclusion of sabre-tooths) and use Felini and Pantherini as tribes within Felinae. In this sense felines covers all living cats.

As a general point, "-id" suffix is used for members of the family, because the suffix "-idae" is used for zoological families, and the "-ine" suffix is used for subfamilies ("inae"), e.g. canids, canines, mustids, bovines, equids, etc. Tribles and subtribes use "-ini" and "ina", while superfamilies get "-oidea".   Jts1882 | talk  07:46, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Jts1882! I see we both understand the terms alike. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I've been meaning to raise is the use of tribe Felini. Someone has been adding it to refer to the inner four lineages, which doesn't match any published source I have seen. There is a document floating around the internet since about 2009 that gives tribe names to most of the lineages, e.g. Acinonychini f